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Patrick Kiser

The Essence of Classic Designers
« on: September 15, 2007, 08:24:48 PM »
If you wanted to trully understand the essence of each classic designer, what 5 courses in your opinion from each designer would be a must play to grasp that essense.  This by no means should be considered a "top 5" kind of thing.  Not interested in that.

Try to explain your choices.  What is critical to each choice.  For instance, maybe one or two courses really exemplify early work (and what aspect of that work) whereas one or two others address latter work and a final course really captures a critical aspect of the designer not evident elsewhere but important in your mind.

So if I wanted to really "get" Mackenzie in all his facets, what 5 courses of his would have to be experienced.

I'm not restricting this to the bigger names like Mackenzie, Ross, or Tillinghast.  Certainly open to others like MacDonald/Raynor, Colt, Flynn, Bell, etc.

Also if you feel 5 is simply not enough (or even too much), explain why.  For example, is it fair to say Shinnecock is enough to explain what Flynn was all about?

Let's not open this up to courses no longer around like maybe the Lido for MacDonald/Raynor.  Only because they can no longer be played.

Should make for an interesting debate.
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“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Ian Andrew

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2007, 11:15:19 PM »
I'll stick to the two that I'm most comfortable with.

Stanley Thompson
1. Highland Links
2. St. George's
3. Jasper Park
4. Banff Springs
5. Capilano

I honestly think these 5 stand out head and shoulders above the others.

Walter Travis
1. Garden City GC
2. Cape Arundal
3. Hollywood
4. Yahnandasis
5. Ekwanok

CC of Scranton and Lookout Point could replace Ekwanok and Yahnandasis
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 11:16:27 PM by Ian Andrew »
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Mark_Fine

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2007, 10:00:41 AM »
Patrick,
I think this question has been posed here before (maybe someone smarter than I can pull up the old thread).  

I hope some of the lists that will be posted by others include some of the more obscure courses from these designers as often times you can learn more from them because they have been tinkered with less.  Also, to list only five to get an essence might be too few.  The more you see, the more you learn.  Would five Ross courses for example be enough?  I don't think so.  Aim for 50 or so and then you've covered a little over 10% of his designs and should have some feel.  Frankly some of the other architects need a lot more attention then five to really get a handle.  

I think it was Geoff Shackelford who once said that be thinks less than 10% of the work of classic designers still remains in tact.  If some of the recent articles that have been written have any impact, that percentage will be dropping even lower  :(  Seems the message out there is if a course is old or "tired", blow it up and start over  ???  I"m just thrilled that I have gotten to play and study so many as their numbers might be falling fast  :(

Mark
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TEPaul

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2007, 10:12:49 AM »
Patrick:

Wonderful over-all question really but to answer it well would basically require something of a thesis.  ;)
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Patrick Kiser

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2007, 12:14:51 PM »
Ian,

Nice list.  Do you have some thoughts about what each course illustrates best about the designer?

If one visits Highland Links, what really stands out about Thompson?

Quote from: Ian Andrew on September 15, 2007, 11:15:19 PM
I honestly think these 5 stand out head and shoulders above the others.
Logged
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Patrick Kiser

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2007, 12:28:31 PM »
If someone can pull that thread that would be great.  I actually did search but couldn't find.

I think the intro was pretty flexible to the number of courses.  Certainly not fixed.  I suggested 5 to get the ball rolling.  50 seems like a lot, but if you think that's what it would take then maybe I'm asking for too much.

Quote from: Mark_Fine on September 16, 2007, 10:00:41 AM
Patrick,
I think this question has been posed here before (maybe someone smarter than I can pull up the old thread).  

I hope some of the lists that will be posted by others include some of the more obscure courses from these designers as often times you can learn more from them because they have been tinkered with less.  Also, to list only five to get an essence might be too few.  The more you see, the more you learn.  Would five Ross courses for example be enough?  I don't think so.  Aim for 50 or so and then you've covered a little over 10% of his designs and should have some feel.  Frankly some of the other architects need a lot more attention then five to really get a handle.  

I think it was Geoff Shackelford who once said that be thinks less than 10% of the work of classic designers still remains in tact.  If some of the recent articles that have been written have any impact, that percentage will be dropping even lower  :(  Seems the message out there is if a course is old or "tired", blow it up and start over  ???  I"m just thrilled that I have gotten to play and study so many as their numbers might be falling fast  :(

Mark

Logged
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Rich Goodale

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2007, 12:38:20 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on September 16, 2007, 10:12:49 AM
Patrick:

Wonderful over-all question really but to answer it well would basically require something of a thesis.  ;)

Tom

Surely you could do Flynn in 500,000 words or less?
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Patrick Kiser

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2007, 12:39:21 PM »
Ya, a loaded question for sure. :P

But aren't most of you guys writers?  ;D  Come on!

I actually have a goal for this.

Collect the various feedback to condense it into an actionable list.  My hope is to make an annual plan to focus on one classic designer and make a point of trying to play at least 5 courses ... maybe more.  Of course, it's also about what I can get on.

Without being in the best position to "know" what the optimum choices would be, I figured I'd ask the experts here.  I can read books all day, but that will typically only show one perspective and usually won't delve into course details.  Bahto's volume on MacDonald probably being an exception.

Quote from: TEPaul on September 16, 2007, 10:12:49 AM
Patrick:

Wonderful over-all question really but to answer it well would basically require something of a thesis.  ;)
Logged
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Mark_Fine

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2007, 01:25:35 PM »
Patrick,
There are a lot of good books out there already covering this topic and most are less than 500,000 words.  I think even Brad's book on Ross which is an inch thick, is only 300 or so pages with tons of great photos.  Get reading  ;)
Mark

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Patrick Kiser

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2007, 02:52:35 PM »
Well I'll have to disagree on this.

Not to pick on Brad because I'm pretty certain the direction of his book was not to address what I'm asking about, but you simply will not find out from Brad's book what makes Pinehurst #2 a must example of Ross and what aspects of Ross are reflected throughout each hole.  

Rather by and large to me Brad's book addresses what it was to be Ross the man and what he went through to be the man he was.  Much more a historical perspective.  You'll find out more about what went into making the courses.

Sure there are a few pages addressing at a high level what were Ross's strengths design style wise, but you simply will not find out what courses reflected those strengths the best or most.  Especially given what's left of Ross today.


Quote from: Mark_Fine on September 16, 2007, 01:25:35 PM
Patrick,
There are a lot of good books out there already covering this topic and most are less than 500,000 words.  I think even Brad's book on Ross which is an inch thick, is only 300 or so pages with tons of great photos.  Get reading  ;)
Mark


Logged
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Mark_Fine

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2007, 03:17:08 PM »
Patrick,
If you are not happy with Brad's book, read "Golf Has Never Failed Me".  It's probably 100 pages shorter and gets right to the point of "the essence" of what is a Ross course!  If you don't like that one then all you are going to find is someone else's version of what is "the essence" because Ross wrote that one himself (with a little help from Mr. Whitten, but only a little)  ;)

And for Pete Dye (as mentioned in your other thread), read Bury Me In A Pot Bunker and you will get an essence of his style.  I'd also recommend going to play all the courses he mentions as well!  There is a good list!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 03:27:32 PM by Mark_Fine »
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Patrick Kiser

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2007, 03:28:55 PM »
???

Not happy with Brad's book?  You lost me.

I never said that.  Just said I didn't find what I was trying to answer in Brad's book.

Same thing with Golf Has Never Failed Me.  You'll never find out which courses currently reflect the essence of Ross best and most.

It might just be that my question simply can't be answered.  Sort of what TEPaul is saying.  A thesis might be required and maybe my question could be answered partially.

At least I'm asking the question and in the most appropriate forum I hope.

I digress.

Thanks for the tip on Dye.  I'll have to look into.


Quote from: Mark_Fine on September 16, 2007, 03:17:08 PM
Patrick,
If you are not happy with Brad's book, read "Golf Has Never Failed Me".  It's probably 100 pages shorter and gets right to the point of "the essence" of what is a Ross course!  If you don't like that one then all you are going to find is someone else's version of what is "the essence" because Ross wrote that one himself (with a little help from Mr. Whitten, but only a little)  ;)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 03:32:04 PM by Patrick Kiser »
Logged
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Mark_Fine

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2007, 04:29:57 PM »
Patrick,
I'm not sure finding the essence of an architect requires a thesis.  If that were the case then I think you would agree that few people will ever get the essence about who these guys were and how they designed their courses.  Didn't you orginally think that seeing only five courses might get you there?  We moved to needing a thesis pretty quickly  ;)  

I think Brad's book gives you the essence of a Donald Ross golf course, who he was, and how he did his designs.  That is why I made that comment that you were not happy with it.  I'd still want to experience first hand a lot of his courses.  

Ian made a nice list for Travis as well as for Thompson.  I'd recommend each of those courses as well as the books The Toronto Terror and Practical Golf.  You will find both very informative.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 04:36:05 PM by Mark_Fine »
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Phil McDade

Re:The Essence of Classic Designers
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2007, 04:49:33 PM »
Patrick:

Can we have 90 holes?

Five for consideration by Langford/Moreau:

-- Lawsonia: probably their premier course, nearly completely intact in its original intent.

-- The first nine at West Bend CC, West Bend, WI (L/M on steriods, over some really varied terrain), and the L/M renovation at Skokie (to see how they tied into an original classic-era course).

-- The nine at Culver Academies, and the original nine at Harrison Hills: both from the early 1920s, and their best work in Indiana. Early inspiration for Dye?

-- Wakonda: an original or a re-design? Either way, architect Ron Forse says it's all Langford/Moreau; Iowa's best classic-era course?

-- Spring Valley: In little Salem, WI, for an intact and incomplete L/M, and to see the possibilities of what could be.

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