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Phil Benedict

Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« on: September 13, 2007, 02:39:14 PM »
I've played some top courses in shotgun formats (Fenway, Quaker Ridge, Baltusrol).  Am I the only person who finds it harder to remember a course if I play it out of sequence?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 02:47:54 PM by Phil Benedict »

Jim_Kennedy

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 02:41:36 PM »
Phil,
Same problem here, I think it has to do with age  ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 02:49:10 PM »
It's harder for me to remember the course properly if I play it in a shotgun out of normal starting order---a lot harder---but that's probably because I'm unusually dumb anyway.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 03:14:00 PM »
I don't think this makes it any harder to remember individual holes, or features... what it makes harder is to IDENTIFY such.  That is, when someone asks about the great bunker on 17, you have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to recall which hole 17 really is.

That's what you mean, right Phil?

 ;D

Phil Benedict

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 03:20:11 PM »
I can recall individual holes but I lose the flow that comes from playing a course in its proper sequence.  The routing and the course as a whole tends to become a bit of a muddle.

Kalen Braley

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 03:30:09 PM »
Aren't these scrambles just a lame excuse for guys to get out of work on weekdays, play golf on some sponsoring companies dime and drink a 6 pack or two??

That being said, my answer is yes, because if I've had a drink or 2, or 3, or 4, or more, then my ability to remember is probably at least a wee-bit diminished..  ;D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 03:30:51 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 03:31:20 PM »
We're on the same page there, Kalen.

Which reminds me, I haven't done one of these in way too long....


Dan Boerger

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 03:35:03 PM »
I agree! I really prefer to play a course -- any course -- the way the architect envisioned the first hole through the last. I don't even like starting on #10 on a new course.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Ken Moum

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 03:41:50 PM »
I don't think this makes it any harder to remember individual holes, or features... what it makes harder is to IDENTIFY such.  That is, when someone asks about the great bunker on 17, you have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to recall which hole 17 really is.

That's what you mean, right Phil?

 ;D

That's my experience. I play in about two or three of the dreaded shotgun scrambles for charity each year and if it's on a new course I can never figure out later whichnine was which, or any of the holes.

There's even one course near here that I have played several times, but never starting on #1. As a consequence, when I talk to someone about it, I have to go through all kinds of mental exercises to figure out what hole we're talking about.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 03:46:19 PM by kmoum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tony_Muldoon

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 03:56:25 PM »
Yes Phil yes.  

I've had the misfortune to play the Berkshire Red, once starting at the first and once at the 10th. On both days I played 36 including their blue course - both times from the first.  I could draw a routing of the Blue but I couldn't sketch two consecutive holes on the Red even though I fondly remember it as one whole underated joy.

Even worse was a day at Swinley Forrest. Sean arble and I started our round on 10. Then after lunch we set out without enought time to play 18. So we managed something like 1-7 and 13-18 but my memeory is just so confused about the routing this has to  be the worst way possible to do it.

Sean by contrast is a quick learn when it comes to courses.  I'm just happy to have played them, the memories all come from other places.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Joe Bausch

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 04:10:52 PM »
Try starting your round on the 19th hole, then see how difficult it becomes to remember the course.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Gib_Papazian

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2007, 04:23:12 PM »
Personally, I do not have much trouble remembering a golf course if I play it out of sequence because after the round I take the card and go over it from #1 in my mind's eye to reorient myself.

Where I run into trouble is if I get dragged into a Scramble Tournament with a Shotgun because most of them require the use of at least three tee shots from each player.

So, despite my puny skills these days, that means I am the "A" player with three other bozos, one who carries a 28 and at least one who only plays golf once a year in order to inflict the maximum amount of trauma on his playing partners.

The consequence of this is at least six of the holes are played zipper down from the "dick out" position, invariably on the last holes because the chopper has not hit a drive between the gutters yet and the only alternative is to have him intentionally whiff it and have everybody tee it up hitting two.

   
 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:24:41 PM by Gib Papazian »

Phil Benedict

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2007, 04:32:22 PM »
Business-related scrambles can make you want to give up the game.  I played in one last year at Bay Hill where, mercifully, you could use the best drive no matter who hit it.  The real fun was on the green.  One guy would hit a five-footer 20 feet while another would hit it three feet.  Really helped out with the read.

John Keenan

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2007, 04:40:54 PM »
Scrambles are for fun and usually charity. They should be played in the spirit they are put on.

Enjoy the course, your fellow playing partners and cold beverage. .

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2007, 04:44:05 PM »
Scrambles are for fun and usually charity. They should be played in the spirit they are put on.

Enjoy the course, your fellow playing partners and cold beverage. .



EXCELLENT advice.  I tend to particularly follow the last part.

Gib_Papazian

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 04:49:24 PM »
This rant - for some strange reason - has been reprinted three or four times since I wrote it for ANG Newspaper chain. Here is what I *really* think of Scramble Tournaments.

PLEASE FORWARD TO GLENN REEVES IN SAN MATEO COUNTY TIMES SPORTS DEPT. THIS GOLF COLUMN IS FOR TUESDAY. -GIB PAPAZIAN    


 Your faithful scribe would like to announce his retirement from so-called "Scramble" tournaments.  You know the format; everybody hits a drive, pick the best one, then everybody hit from that spot.  After 20 odd years of paying lots of money to play other people's shots, I am done, finito - had it up to here.

         It often starts out as a charity event you get guilted into - "a  worthy cause" to establish a home for something like unwanted or neglected parakeets.  The tee prizes are always rock-hard Top-Flite golf balls and a cheap golf towel the size of a diaper.  This is paid for by the sale of "mulligans," which is an ancient Gaelic word roughly translated to mean "bad golfer who cheats a lot."

     The company events are actually worse.  In my other life as a salesman, I get "invited" as a supplier to participate in lots of tournaments.  This means paying $500 for the privilege of sponsoring a fivesome on a bad golf course.

     The final straw was when it occurred to me that I have drawn the same partners in virtually in every event like some kind of out- take from the movie Groundhog Day. They are always smiling and waiting for me when I arrive at our assigned tee, invariably on the No. 1 handicap hole.

     Let’s meet the main characters from the never ending sit-com of my life:

Jack the Stud:  Big guy, powerful swing, always smoking an enormous cigar.  Will find a way to work into the conversation even before the shotgun that he once played minor league ball for the Expo's.  Big bag, big ego, drinks Bud by the gallon.  Carries a 16 handicap, plays to an 11.  Always wearing a loud Hawaiian shirt.

Nervous Bill.  Tennis shorts, flaps on the shoes, Bill putts with one finger down the shaft and his spikes are always down to nubs.  Quiet guy who chain smokes Marlboro Lights, and plays with knock-off irons.  Wears a visor instead of a cap even though he has a bald spot.  Has a reverse-pivot and weak slice.

Uncle Joe: Older fellow, used to be a single digit, now plays to a 18. Plays the bump and run shot around the green and carries a Mizuno driver with a whippy shaft.  Last missed a fairway during the Eisenhower administration.  He is your best cart companion.

Herb the hack: Plays twice a year, only in tournaments where he can inflict the most misery on his partners.  If it's a company tournament, he will be a V.P. and every single article of clothing and equipment will have a logo on it from a supplier. Herb is covered with so much advertising he looks like Emerson Fittipaldi, and finding his ball is an 18 hole Easter egg hunt. He always steps in your putting line and never replaces his divots.

     Regardless of the tournament, it is always the same group.  However, recognizing that the Scramble format will not go away just because I have retired, this week we present some strategy that has worked over the years.  Hopefully this will make the death march more bearable.

Hint No.1: Pick a captain, and make sure it's you.      

Hint No.2: If you have to use everyone's drive at least twice, make sure you use up Herb's on the first nine if possible.  It takes discipline not to play a long blast from Jack, but if you wait too long you'll come to the last hole with no choice.  Short par fives are a good spot because you can still make birdie with a good approach.

Hint No.3: Uncle Joe will wear a hole through his five wood, but everyone else will rarely use enough club on approach shots - especially Nervous Bill.  He thinks he can fly a 7-iron 150 yards, but 135 is more like it.

Hint No.4: On par 5's, let's suppose one of you rips the second shot far beyond the best effort of Herb or Bill.  Instead of letting them take pointless chop at a 3-wood, encourage them to practice hitting a 5-wood or mid-iron straight.  This will be useful when they need to hit a tee shot.

Hint No.5: Unless it is a short putt, don't make Herb the first attempt.  It only confuses the issue when he hits a 20 foot putt 10 feet by the hole.  Uncle Joe is a good start as he normally has good lag-putting touch.  If it's a short putt, start with Herb as he might luck one in and feel like he has contributed something for a change.

Hint No.6: The shortest putt is not always the easiest.  Only two of you have a realistic chance with an eight foot sidehill slider, but everyone has a chance to make that uphill 15 footer.

Hint No.7: When chipping from off the green, if there is any possibility for Herb or Bill to use a putter, insist that they do so.  Jack's ego makes him suggestion proof, so don't bother.  Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Hint No.8: Never ever use a shot in a greenside bunker unless you are an exceptional sand player.

Hint No.9: Uncle Joe should hit first most of the time off the tee.  Otherwise he will try to kill the ball to keep up and destroy his rhythm.  You'll find very often that at the end of the day you used more of his drives than anyone including Jack.

Hint No.10: Remember, the most successful teams are not the ones that make the most birdies, but the ones that don't give any shots back.

     Sadly, even with this hard won wisdom, team Groundhog always  finishes fourth, and the prize is invariably a Smokey Joe Barbeque. I have nine of them stacked in my garage if anyone wants to buy one cheap. Heck, I’ll even throw in a golf towel for free with every purchase.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:52:19 PM by Gib Papazian »

Kalen Braley

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2007, 07:03:39 PM »
LMFAO Gib...that was hilarious...especially seeing how its not too far from the truth...

Especially liked hint # 5 for the hacker in the group so they aren't pouting by the turn cause he hasn't contributed 1 shot to the cause.

Jason McNamara

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2007, 03:58:23 AM »
Sadly, even with this hard won wisdom, team Groundhog always  finishes fourth, and the prize is invariably a Smokey Joe Barbeque

Well the problem is obvious, Gib.  You don't cheat well enough to win scrambles.  That ABCD team needs to have 3 twos and a ten.

Great piece.  The only thing you left out was the unending cell phone conversation(s) Herb and/or Jack will have.  Oh, and the fact that these rounds from hell somehow take 60 minutes longer to play than a regular round.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:59:00 AM by Jason McNamara »

Adrian_Stiff

Re:Is it harder to remember a course if you play it in a shotgun?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2007, 09:36:38 AM »
i agree, its hard to remember the holes exactly. I played Littlestone in a shotgun once, I can remember it was a nice course and I remember a short par 4 actual 1st, but the other holes I cant put the number too.
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