Gary,

I have it on pretty good authority that East Lake has decided to convert from bent to an ultra dwarf bermuda. I also understand that Atlanta Athletic Club is doing the same, no doubt in anticipation of the PGA in a few years.

Once these two leading clubs make the conversion, I expect we will see a number of other courses in the area follow suit.

It should be a good thing if it results in more firmness in the greens themselves and, ultimately, "through the green".

My expert agronomist tells me that undue softness in bent greens in the SE at this time of year is not due to overwatering. Rather, it results from the root system essentially shutting down, which creates a gel-like substructure. Poor playing conditions result.

Ken

what a surprise, something else overlooked by the tour!!!  it does get hot in the south during the summer...I guess they didn't realize it.

As an Atl resident/golfer, I found the article very interesting.  I would be really, really shocked if East Lake converted to Champion, as the article indicated that they would, but it is a great surface, no doubt.

I know the greens will be softer than the Tour or the club would like; August was just absolutely brutal, and it took a LOT of water to keep bent alive here.  Very, very unusual to say the least, and up until then, the bent greens around here were the best I can ever remember them being late in the summer.

Even now, most courses have good putting surfaces, because fungus wasn't a problem this year.  But they are soft, and that may make scores at East Lake very, very low.

I copied my post from the FedEx Greens thread since I was talking about EL:

I am a little hesitant to weigh in about courses that "lost" their greens since one of our illustrious posters on this site had his partner make some erroneous comments about my course having "lost" its greens  (not even close to true--East Lake would kill for my greens).  But since I know this firsthand and have been on site (unlike the guy who made comments about my course), here it goes:

Not sure about the other FedEx greens but Atlanta's East Lake is really struggling and to some degree anyone with any golf knowledge who thought bent grass in Mid September has any good chance of being in good shape should have known better.

the greens at East Lake are struggling.  Here is what I KNOW:
1.  Atlanta had almost 30 days of no rain and set a record for heat with 9 days above 100 and the highest August temperatures EVER recorded.
2.  East Lake had even more extreme heat thanks to the "heat effect" of being in the city.
3.  As of yesterday, Medalist Golf was sodding bermuda around greens!  Edges of greens that had simply died were cut out and the bermuda fringe areas were "expanded".
4.  A week or so ago in a fairly desperate move to get soil temps down, pallets of ice were used on at least one green to cool them down!

What I've HEARD:
1.  The super had wanted to put fans around the greens early in August and the GM resisted this move.  There are now generators and four fans on many greens but unfortunately, it's too little too late.  
2.  They are using green topdressing sand and paint to try and mask the dead spots for TV.
3.  The greens were aerated (from pics I saw) in order to try and get some air to the roots and help with gas exchange--I think this will help but it will also soften them up--they will not be firm, fast or smooth.
4.  They will recover a little by next week but I know the crew feels terrible about what happened.
5.  Small consolation but the rest of the course is in perfect shape.

I am certain they will change over to Bermuda for next year.  In order to have firm, fast greens in Atlanta the second week in September, bermuda is the choice.  They are talking about mini verde not the Champion but the new ultra dwarf bermudas are fantastic.  

I am still a bentrgrass proponent for Atlanta in general but for a specific situation like this, bermuda is a "no brainer".

Paul,

I am not anti-bermuda at all.  The new ultra dwarfs are unreal and this summer in Atlanta made it a perfect match for this area.

I am only real familiar with Atlanta and the main point I have is that in Atlanta, there is no "silver bullet" of grasses.  All grasses will have issues and to some degree it's a matter of "picking your poison".

If I owned a course and I wanted very firm, fast conditions for early to mid September I'd pick bermuda for my greens.  (I actually prefer bermuda fairways to the older zoysias becaiuse of the "stickiness" of the older zoysias although the new zoysias (diamond for example) has such a fine turf blade I might change my mind).

Anyway bermuda greens in Atlanta have different issues--covers/tarps needed at night when temps approach 27.  Those are big tarps if anyone has ever used them--you need 4-5 guys per green putting on tarps after play winds up on a winter day--very labor expensive and it could get expensive if we have a cold winter.

Despite those precations, winter kill for bermuda is a very real issue in Atlanta.  Bent grass of course has its fungal/diesese issues of course but again, no grass is without its issues.

There is also a very specific regimine/protocol for bermuda that needs to be followed and there are not a lot of courses that have made the switch (yet) so supers in Atlanta are still used to bent greens/issues.

I think you will see clubs without access to huge capital dollars and daily fees that can't afford a year long shut down transition to bermuda from bent.  Trophy Club in Atlanta just did it and I will not be shocked to see RiverPines do it one day as well.  The driver there will be the ability to re-open for play ASAP as much as anything else such as turf quality.

I did consider bermuda but at my course we felt bermuda growth really doesn't begin until June 1 and usually lasts until the second hard frost which can be at the end of September sometimes.  Anyway, my busy season is really from September 1 through June 30 when I think bent grass can do exceptionally well in north Atlanta. And I do think great bent is better than great bermuda.

From June 15 to October 1 Bermuda is in its prime but I don't think it is a "no brainer" for either grass.  

Question:  Is the paspallum related in any way to "Dallas grass"?  If it is, then that has got to be some of the hardiest stuff around!  Isn't it very salt tolerant and used a lot in ocean side situations?

2nd Question:  How do you compare mini verde to Champion--I heard EL is looking at mini verde despite almost everyone in ATL going Champion?

So would they overseed them in the winter?

There's more.  Or, upon further review, as Tony was saying...

"Conditions of the greens at East Lake Golf Club have reached such a critical point that officials may not allow players on the course until the first round of The Tour Championship on Thursday."

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2007/09/08/tourgreens_0909.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

The greens in Greenwood SC, at the Patriot course, are not over seeded, but instead rolled occasionally and mowed during warm spells....and lightly painted.

Billy Ford, the Super, has done a great job managing the turf.
He was also responsible for the choice of Mini Verdi and the topsoil greens mix we used.

I understand that many of the members prefer the dormant greens. They can be both fast and firmer than when growing.

I don't see Greenwood as being that much climatically different than Atlanta....more like Callaway if anything.

Maybe that is too much of a difference?

There's more.  Or, upon further review, as Tony was saying...

"Conditions of the greens at East Lake Golf Club have reached such a critical point that officials may not allow players on the course until the first round of The Tour Championship on Thursday."

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2007/09/08/tourgreens_0909.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

They reported on the golf channel tonight that players will not be allowed on the greens or to hit approach shots into the greens until the first day of the event.  It will be interesting to see the reactions from all sides.

I talked to a couple of people yesterday who said the EL greens are not good.

Which is a bit of a mystery. It was a brutally hot August, but most courses in ATL seemed to survive it pretty well.

Bob

 

AG...that is the kicker...players and caddies only allowed.  No patrons!  Maybe even no TV.  You'll had your chance in 1989 to see behind the pearly gates!  

AG...that is the kicker...players and caddies only allowed.  No patrons!  Maybe even no TV.  You'll had your chance in 1989 to see behind the pearly gates!  

Michael:

I assume you mean the 89 Walker Cup.  I was there and what a great experience it was.  All except the US losing the cup for the first time on American soil.  Intersting US team captained by Fred Ridley; Robert Gamez, David Eger, Jay Sigel, Allen Doyle (didn't play due to a back injury but was selected to the team and present) Ralph Howe III, Doug Martin, Kevin Johnson, Peachtree memeber Danny Yates, Greg Lesher and an 18 or 19 year old Phil Mickelson.