What's the Easiest Great Course?

« **on:** August 31, 2007, 01:25:39 PM »

Shivas commented on another thread that 10 years ago he didn't consider Olympia Fields a course great because it was too easy, and "resistance to scoring" is one of the Golf Digest rating criteria. Certain great courses are famously difficult (Oakmont, Winged Foot, Pine Valley).

Set up for regular play, what's the easiest great course? For the scratch golfer? For the bogie golfer?

« **Reply #1 on:** August 31, 2007, 01:46:20 PM »

Phil,

With an emphasis on the "set up for regular play" part; from my experience I would say Seminole. There are four par 5's I can reach with an iron and several wedges into par 4 greens. If I can get through the par 3's at par or one over, I should shoot a few under par...under regular conditions. With the flag up, Seminole becomes a bear...which is a great sign of a truly great course to me...

« **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:03:55 PM »

I gotta go with NGLA. My first time seeing it I shot 1 under. I also have to say that if I could play just one course day in and day out, it would be NGLA. I probably scored so well because I did not know where I should not be (if that makes any sense).

Shoreacres scores high on this list too and is a blast to play as well. I need a rematch with that place though.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:07:43 PM »

Quote from: Jim Franklin on August 31, 2007, 02:03:55 PM

I gotta go with NGLA. My first time seeing it I shot 1 under. I also have to say that if I could play just one course day in and day out, it would be NGLA. I probably scored so well because I did not know where I should not be (if that makes any sense).

Makes all the sense in the world...for those of us that have tried to post a score on a course we know well...

I was force to look at the Golfweek Top 100...sorry boys, I only checked the Classic 100...to see what great meant. Sadly I have seen very few of the top few dozen. I am sure "GREAT" goes much further down than that, but I elected Seminole because in my mind it is unquestionably "GREAT", and yet under "regular" conditions it can be easy...

« **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:11:32 PM »

The Old Course from the tees and the pins used for normal play and less than 15 mph of wind. 2 reachable par fives, 4 potentially driveable par fours.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:12:58 PM »

Quote from: Jason Topp on August 31, 2007, 02:11:32 PM

The Old Course from the tees and the pins used for normal play and less than 15 mph of wind. 2 reachable par fives, 4 potentially driveable par fours.

BINGO.
All that's required is missing the bunkers and a great score can certainly be yours.

However if you get in a bunker, particularly in the wrong place....

And of course wind changes everything.

« **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:13:58 PM »

Let's use the back tees for the scratch guys and the regular tees for the "bogey" guy...does that keep TOC in the mix? I haven't been there.

« **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:18:32 PM »

Quote from: JES II on August 31, 2007, 02:13:58 PM

Let's use the back tees for the scratch guys and the regular tees for the "bogey" guy...does that keep TOC in the mix? I haven't been there.

Good idea.

« **Reply #8 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:22:22 PM »

Thing is, normal folks hardly ever are allowed to play the back tees at TOC. And they also have crazy Open tees that are only used for that event (I think).

In any case I'd still say that if we eliminate wind, TOC is still going to belong in this conversation from any tees. Remember how firm and fast it is... it does not play long from the Open tees for the big boys. Each par five remains reachable, as do at least most of the shortish par fours.

Bogey player just has to miss the bunkers. But given their quantity and severity, he might have a tough day. Not sure if the course is every going to be all that easy for him.

TH

« **Reply #9 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:33:08 PM »

Fair enough Huck, like I said...I have not been there and from my experience, Links courses are highly dependent on the wind to provide a scoring challenge to scratch and better players...

In 1997 I played in the British Amateur and shot 85 at Royal St. Georges in a really strong wind...Driver on #11...and noone broke par in medal play...in the second round I watched Justin Rose dismantle a young Spaniard (strangely, it may have been Garcis, but I do not remember) about 6 and 5 while being about 6 under on a windless day...and the course seemed almost defenseless...

« **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:37:45 PM »

Sully, like I said, wind changes everything. We're in agreement there.

But I also think TOC is particularly defenseless sans wind... because then the good player can even that much more easily avoid the bunkers, which really are the course's main defense.

TH

« **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:45:37 PM »

I anxiously await my opportunity to find out...

« **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:47:31 PM »

Ofthose acknowledged as great The Old Course has to be the top choice, even with a wind.

The first time I played it the wind was blowing at about 2 or 3 clubs off the estuary, I didn't have a caddy, and was getting advice on where to play from my opponents in a fourball match

Nevertheless, it didn't kill me. (I didn't keep a medal score, however as we were playing the match).

The next day we played with caddies and the wind was down, and I actually played worse.

Now, I personally think Brora is great, and it's even easier than The Old.

Ken

« **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:53:14 PM »

Ken,

Does it tell you something that you played a bit better 'flying blind' than with just a bit of knowledge (1 days play)?

« **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:54:30 PM »

I wish I'd played some of the great courses, so I could get in on this: there's a really neat discussion here. Instead, a question:

Are there different kinds of 'easy'?

e.g. Is Shoreacres particularly well-suited to (easier for) the very good mid-and-short-iron player? Is Seminole particularly well suited to (easier for) the the very good driver? Etc.

Thanks
Peter

« **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2007, 02:59:08 PM »

The big answer is YES, absolutely...

I've tried to answer from the scratch players perspective, and I would say Seminole offers more real birdie opportunities than the other "GREAT" courses I have played. It also forces you to play the par 3's well...notice I hoped to get through the 3's in even or 1 over in order to shoot a few under...

I would say driving accuracy is important, but not the key to a good score there...Distance will bring the 5's into range with your second shot, and good wedges will give you several birdie chances, while taking greenside recovery pressure off...

« **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:12:13 PM »

Sully -

Have you played NGLA? I thought that was easier to score on than Seminole. I thought Seminole's greens were much tougher to putt than NGLA thus making it a little more difficult to score the first time out. Unfortunately I have only played Seminole once.

« **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:12:48 PM »

Speaking as a bogey golfer, I think Cypress Point Club was the course I found easiest among the small selection of great courses I've played.

That same trip I played Spyglass Hill and Pasatiempo, each at least near-great, and CPC was my best score and most easily achieved score of those three. Perhaps it would be different if I had not enjoyed world-class caddies who kept me from losing a golf ball and showed me the breaks on the greens. It was also the most fun of the courses I played on that trip.

Probably the only other, unequivocally, great course I've played is two round at Kiawah's Ocean Course. Cypress Point is certainly not as difficult as that one although moving up to shorter tees help immensely at Kiawah.

« **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:15:02 PM »

Quote from: Jim Franklin on August 31, 2007, 03:12:13 PM

Sully -

Have you played NGLA? I thought that was easier to score on than Seminole. I thought Seminole's greens were much tougher to putt than NGLA thus making it a little more difficult to score the first time out. Unfortunately I have only played Seminole once.

Hurricane,

I have not. I thought of NGLA and CPC as candidates for others, but neither are in my folder...

Agreed that Seminole is difficult to putt, I've never had much luck myself, but tee to green on "regular" days it should be pretty easy to have several chances...

« **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:17:38 PM »

Quote from: JES II on August 31, 2007, 03:15:02 PM

Quote from: Jim Franklin on August 31, 2007, 03:12:13 PM
Sully -

Have you played NGLA? I thought that was easier to score on than Seminole. I thought Seminole's greens were much tougher to putt than NGLA thus making it a little more difficult to score the first time out. Unfortunately I have only played Seminole once.

Hurricane,

I have not. I thought of NGLA and CPC as candidates for others, but neither are in my folder...

Agreed that Seminole is difficult to putt, I've never had much luck myself, but tee to green on "regular" days it should be pretty easy to have several chances...

Gotcha. I will be interested to hear what you think after you play NGLA for the first time.

« **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:22:07 PM »

Sand Hills , middle tee's no wind, is not that tough.

« **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:24:28 PM »

Quote from: john_foley on August 31, 2007, 03:22:07 PM

Sand Hills , middle tee's no wind, is not that tough.

It is GREAT fun from those tees.
But it's WAY harder than TOC.

TH

« **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:27:31 PM »

Quote from: JES II on August 31, 2007, 02:53:14 PM

Ken,

Does it tell you something that you played a bit better 'flying blind' than with just a bit of knowledge (1 days play)?

Not really, given that I have no idea where my ball is going most of the time.

The first day I think I managed to miss a few more green in places where I could get up and down. And I am very adept at getting up and down when there's a reasonable chance.

But if your misses on The Old are all unlucky, you could shoot a million.

Regardless, I don't see how it can be considered a difficult course. As long as you stay out of the gorse, you probably are going to find your ball and have some sort of play.

K

« **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:32:23 PM »

It is soooo much fun from those tee's.

BTW - Wildhorse is the same w/ no wind.

Have not been to TOC so I can not comment.

I would also add Oak Hill East as outside the 5th hole & 15th holes (both w/ H2O hazards)

« **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2007, 03:45:33 PM »

JF - an often put-upon, much shit given to, taker on of one on five arguments man in here once said about Sand Hills:

It's NGLA from the middle tees, Shinnecock from the backs.

Care to guess who that was?

And he (I) meant by that that it's fun as all hell from the middles, a damn stern test (but still pretty darn fun) from the tips.

TH

News:

Phil Benedict

JESII

Jim Franklin

JESII

Jason Topp

Tom Huckaby

JESII

Phil Benedict

Tom Huckaby

JESII

Tom Huckaby

JESII

Ken Moum

JESII

Peter Pallotta

JESII

Jim Franklin

Brent Hutto

JESII

Jim Franklin

John Foley

Tom Huckaby

Ken Moum

John Foley

Tom Huckaby