[David Stamm]

Just a question for the Philly boys. I never hear too much mentioned of this early Thomas course. Is it intact? If not, how does it play today? I've just been reading his book alot as of late and was wondering. GS doesn't mention much of it in his book.

[wsmorrison]

It is overshadowed by all the Flynn (and rightly so) as well as the Ross and many other courses in the area.  Worth seeing if you're spending an extended time here, but not if golf time is at all limited.  Interestingly, Flynn and Ross did some work there.

[David Stamm]

It is overshadowed by all the Flynn (and rightly so) as well as the Ross and many other courses in the area.  Worth seeing if you're spending an extended time here, but not if golf time is at all limited.  Interestingly, Flynn and Ross did some work there.

Thanks Wayne. Do you happen to know how much Flynn and Ross changed of the course? Also, are there clues there as to what Thomas' style would become in California?

[wsmorrison]

Honestly, David.  I think the guy who reworked Whitemarsh Valley took the look of the Thomas courses in California and tried to replicate it at WVCC.  Flynn proposed several changes but I think the 18th hole is all that was adopted.  Ross proposed several changes on 2,11 and 18.  I don't know if they were done.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The recent work at WV was done by Ed Shearon.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The work was done by Ed Shearon?

Shearon was kicked of a restoration project at Mill River (Thomas Winton) in Connecticut and sued by the club. What did he do at Whitemarsh?

Anthony

[Mike_Cirba]

Umm....

The work at Whitemarsh Valley is a mixed bag.

On one hand, the fussiness of the bunkers that were done is not entirely out of the Thomas character, but the 12th hole the road is unrecognizable and is now one of the ugliest par threes on the globe.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I have always wondered about this course as well.  It's my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Thomas designed one course before this one, in Marion, MA.
The bunkering I see here, from my car, is more akin to what I more closely associate with Thomas--old pictures I have seen of Riviera, Bel Air, Ojai.  
I have always wondered, if this course was designed in 1909 or whenever I have read--did it look the same then?  My question is, did his style evolve over time?  I believe the courses in California were not designed until years later, in the 1920's.  

All of this is academic, because it comes down to whatever the membership feels is best for the club--which is fine.  

[Mike_Cirba]

I have always wondered about this course as well.  It's my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Thomas designed one course before this one, in Marion, MA.
The bunkering I see here, from my car, is more akin to what I more closely associate with Thomas--old pictures I have seen of Riviera, Bel Air, Ojai.  
I have always wondered, if this course was designed in 1909 or whenever I have read--did it look the same then?  My question is, did his style evolve over time?  I believe the courses in California were not designed until years later, in the 1920's.  

All of this is academic, because it comes down to whatever the membership feels is best for the club--which is fine.  

Doug,

Older aerials of WV show a pretty fussy bunker style.   I do like what Shearon did to 17 & 18, and 10 & 11 ain't bad, although I'm sure that Geoff Shack would vehemently disagree.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Doug,

The first Thomas design was Marion (Mass.) Golf Course for William "King Tut" Bullivant. It is very much a mixed bag of design styles including three par-3s that are all blind. After hours of research for my book including tracking down Bullivant's great grandson, I was not able to come up with the year the course opened but the guess is about 1905.

Anthony

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I have always wondered about this course as well.  It's my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Thomas designed one course before this one, in Marion, MA.
The bunkering I see here, from my car, is more akin to what I more closely associate with Thomas--old pictures I have seen of Riviera, Bel Air, Ojai.  
I have always wondered, if this course was designed in 1909 or whenever I have read--did it look the same then?  My question is, did his style evolve over time?  I believe the courses in California were not designed until years later, in the 1920's.  

All of this is academic, because it comes down to whatever the membership feels is best for the club--which is fine.  

Doug,

Older aerials of WV show a pretty fussy bunker style.   I do like what Shearon did to 17 & 18, and 10 & 11 ain't bad, although I'm sure that Geoff Shack would vehemently disagree.

Mike;

  I'm just wondering about the appearance of the bunkers; the Thomas style, if you will, is markedly different in appearance from, say, the Flynn style; I haven't explored the use of bunkering to see if there are parallels as well, in the placement as hazards or opinions on.  

Wasn't Flynn of the opinion, and I may be mistaken, that bunkers were hazards to be avoided?  

Was Thomas of the same mindset?  

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

Not sure if you have a copy, but there is a picture of the 12th hole (one of my favorite par 3s in Philadelphia) in Geoff Shackelford's Golden Age of Golf in America.

[David Stamm]

I have always wondered about this course as well.  It's my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Thomas designed one course before this one, in Marion, MA.
The bunkering I see here, from my car, is more akin to what I more closely associate with Thomas--old pictures I have seen of Riviera, Bel Air, Ojai.  
I have always wondered, if this course was designed in 1909 or whenever I have read--did it look the same then?  My question is, did his style evolve over time?  I believe the courses in California were not designed until years later, in the 1920's.  

All of this is academic, because it comes down to whatever the membership feels is best for the club--which is fine.  

Doug,

Older aerials of WV show a pretty fussy bunker style.   I do like what Shearon did to 17 & 18, and 10 & 11 ain't bad, although I'm sure that Geoff Shack would vehemently disagree.

Mike;

  I'm just wondering about the appearance of the bunkers; the Thomas style, if you will, is markedly different in appearance from, say, the Flynn style; I haven't explored the use of bunkering to see if there are parallels as well, in the placement as hazards or opinions on.  

Wasn't Flynn of the opinion, and I may be mistaken, that bunkers were hazards to be avoided?  

Was Thomas of the same mindset?  

Doug, in talking with Tommy N, and I may be wrong in remembering this, the Thomas bunkering that we have come to know of his coincided with his partnership with Billy Bell. From what I understand, it was he (Bell) that was largely responsilble for the look that came to be associated with Thomas. This was also true with Bell and his association with Willie Watson. When Watson started doing projects with Bell, his courses bunkers took on a more dramatic look.

[Dave Givnish]

I grew up playing at Whitemarsh.  The property is relatively small and the course is relatively short and tight by today's standards.

From what I saw the last time I was there, the club is trying to open the course by removing some of the trees planted during the 60's and 70's for the IVB (pga event).  They've knocked off a lot of the high face fronts on the greenside bunkers, and I think this creates some more challenging chip shots to the small greens.

4 was the one of the hardest par 3's on tour in the 70's.  It was 235 yards long, with creeks left and right and OB long.  12 was just as difficult.  You had a shot into a long narrow green with a bunker right, and a very steep hill left. Arnie missed the green left one year.  His next shot went OB over the green, and so on until he took a 10 or an 11.

Remember that Whitemarsh has OB right from 4 to 14.  12 was changed in part, I think, to limit the number of windshields that players took out with errant shots onto Germantown Pike.  The new tee position and bunkering focuses you more to the left away from the road.

Is there any truth to the story I heard growing up that Thomas' family owned most of the land, and that he got the design job as part of the deal for it?  I also was told that the Men's Locker Room is in what was the family barn/stable.

[Mike_Cirba]

There's an aerial of WV in "The Captain" that shows the early bunkering.

I don't have it in front of me, but perhaps someone can explain...I recall them being sort of fussy, but that may be just my memory going fuzzy.

[David Stamm]

Mike, it's on page 24. The bunkering, to my eye, does not have dramatic capes and fingers that Thomas would later be known for on his courses (Bell). The bottom photo on that page is of the 12th. The bunker on the left looks very deep. GS notes that it is unchanged to this day.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, it's on page 24. The bunkering, to my eye, does not have dramatic capes and fingers that Thomas would later be known for on his courses (Bell). The bottom photo on that page is of the 12th. The bunker on the left looks very deep. GS notes that it is unchanged to this day.

Thanks, David...I"ll check it out this weekend.

When GS wrote that it's unchanged to this day, that was before Ed Shearon's work.  

[David Stamm]

Thanks. I didn't know that. GS aslo credited Samuel Heebner as the co-designer of WV. Not to put you on the spot, but does anybody know much about him?

[Mike_Cirba]

Samuel Heebner was a prominent member and Greens Committee Chairman of Philadelphia Cricket Club.  He along with Philly Country Club professional Willie Tucker are credited with the design of the second nine (first nine by Sanders Handford) at the original St. Martin's site, which hosted an early US Open.  

[David Stamm]

Samuel Heebner was a prominent member and Greens Committee Chairman of Philadelphia Cricket Club.  He along with Philly Country Club professional Willie Tucker are credited with the design of the second nine (first nine by Sanders Handford) at the original St. Martin's site, which hosted an early US Open.  

Interesting. Thanks Mike! Great stuff!

[TEPaul]

Heebner was one of Thomas's primary early mentors, along with Hugh Wilson----that is if we are to believe Thomas himself. Heebner was a big man in golf around here back then.

Whitemarsh Valley was apparently the estate of Thomas's father.

Thomas's father apparently made a lot of money as a partner in the mega financing and brokerage Philadelphia firm of Drexel & Co (J.P Morgan was an early partner).

If you want to appreciate a real curve in architectural style  through a career you need to see Thomas's early Marion, then Whitemarsh and then something like Riviera.

It's a bit off the point but it occurs to me that some of the best of those early architects made some real mistakes in design when it came to preventing some very serious water damage to their courses for a variety of reasons.

There are a few holes at Whitemarsh that are still paying for that and I doubt there is anything that can ever be done about them that way.

In a word they just shouldn't have been built where they were but back in that day I guess the early architects just didn't understand or appreciate that well enough.

By the end, I happen to think George Thomas may've been the most innovative architect there ever was. His imagination must have been amazing.

On the other hand, you know what Macdonald said about innovation in architecture, don't you?  

The primary feature of Whitemarsh Valley as Thomas did it were its par 3s. One rarely sees a variety of par 3s like Whitemarsh had. And if you think about some of Thomas's other par 3s like Riviera one might even assume he was the King of par 3s in golf architecture.

In my opinion, he was a lot more than that. Despite what Macdonald said about attempts at innovation in golf architecture, George Thomas was one helluva innovator. One just does not think to put a sand bunker in the middle of a putting green by being a mundane thinker.  

[Kyle Harris]

Whitemarsh was the site of one of the first times I was ever in complete awe of my surroundings on a golf course.

I think I stood in the 11th fairway for about 5 minutes gazing up at the green from the landing area.

That and 16 may be one of the most unique and truly challenging par 3s I've played.

Mike Cirba,

Call me if you get a chance.

[David Stamm]

 

 

By the end, I happen to think George Thomas may've been the most innovative architect there ever was. His imagination must have been amazing.

 

  And if you think about some of Thomas's other par 3s like Riviera one might even assume he was the King of par 3s in golf architecture.

In my opinion, he was a lot more than that. Despite what Macdonald said about attempts at innovation in golf architecture, George Thomas was one helluva innovator. One just does not think to put a sand bunker in the middle of a putting green by being a mundane thinker.  

Tom, I have been reading, I mean really reading his book as of late and have played (and will be playing more) of his courses lately and I tend to agree with your assesments of his place in the realm of architecture. I think, and mind you my opinion doesn't carry much weight, he may have very well been one of the 2 or 3 best archs of all time. Arguably the best this country has ever produced. The nads it took to do a hole like #6 at Riviera and pull it off, I tell you, it's genius.
My experience doesn't come close to yourself or others on this site, but I'd be interested if someone could come up with a better collection of par 3's than at Riviera. The man was good. What's happened to his courses overall is a travesty.

[TEPaul]

David:

If you're reading his book, read his chapter called "Arbitrary Values" very carefully. At first I thought he just didn't like putting for some reason and for that reason wanted to assign half strokes to putts.

However, if you read that chapter very carefully you'll see he was after far more than that. He was thinking really deeply into a whole lot of elements of both golf and golf architecture---eg the economics of design and maintenance just being one element.

Some of his ideas on "courses within courses" as I call them, is just flat-ass brilliance---genius really. If you think about it trying to design and build a golf course that worked really well as "courses within a course" is just about the ultimate in golf architectural imagination and creation, in my opinion. I just can't imagine what could be more complex to do and do well than that.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

While you are no doubt correct about Thomas being an innovative thinker, there was a bunker in the 14th green at Huntingdon Valley CC at the Noble, PA site long before Thomas came up with the Riviera design, though it was far from natural looking.



I have never been to Riviera so I cannot say with any authority.  However, consider the par 3s at Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Merion, Rolling Green (yes, really), Kittansett, Philadelphia Country, Gulph Mills, Charles River, Lancaster, Lehigh, Manufacturers as superb collections of par 3s.  In my mind, Flynn considered par 3s to be particularly important and ought to be considered one of the preeminent designers of par 3s.  Too few people know his work but I think the evidence is overwhelming.

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