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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bias by course raters?
« on: August 30, 2007, 06:08:21 PM »
Bill Huffman raises the bias card in his column today about the lack of Arizona courses in GD and Golf Magazine ratings. He does not mention GW:

Behind the green: Is bias behind Arizona courses not measuring up when it comes to magazine rankings?


Bill Huffman, For the Tribune
With nearly 400 golf courses of every type imaginable, I’ve always thought of Arizona as one of the true strongholds of the game. We’ve got some wonderful tracts designed by the best architects in the world, right?

Apparently this is not true if you read Golf magazine, and only a tad better than average if you subscribe to Golf Digest.

Golf magazine recently released its “Top 100 Courses in the U.S.’’ and Arizona had one course — Desert Forest Golf Club in Carefree (No. 78) — among the elite. Arizona did a little bit better in Golf Digest, where the Canyon Course at Forest Highlands (No. 45) and Estancia (No. 81) made “America’s 100 Greatest Golf Courses.’’

Actually, I was surprised that Desert Forest made Golf magazine’s list, but to its credit the pioneer of private desert golf that dates back to 1962 has made it every year since the magazine started rating courses in 1979. Perhaps it’s a “tradition.’

Here's the rest of the article:

www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/96179
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2007, 06:23:51 PM »
Huffman suggests that an "Eastern bias" keeps more Arizona courses out of the rankings, but I suspect that a bias against housing developments has more to do with it.  A couple of other courses in the desert have been ranked in the top 100 not long after they opened, only to slip back once the houses started crowding in.

There are a lot of good desert courses, but unfortunately they all look very much alike, so it's hard to support one above the rest.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters? New
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2007, 06:34:38 PM »
.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 03:40:37 PM by jm »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 07:22:33 PM »
I think TomD is very much on the right track concerning desert courses....if I have the chance to build one [soon], it surely will not have hard contrasting edges.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Andy Troeger

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 07:23:47 PM »
Interesting article, having played a fair amount in Arizona this year with a few more courses scheduled I've been interested to see how the courses stack up.

From what I've seen so far, there are many very good golf courses in Arizona. I'm not sure, however, that I've seen any I would call top 100 level. I haven't played all the candidates by any means, so they might be out there, but I'd still put both Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa ahead of anything I've played in Arizona (including Estancia and Desert Forest). Forest Highlands and/or Seven Canyons might change that. I could be accused of being a homer of course ;). We-Ko-Pa Saguaro remains my favorite course in Arizona followed by The Rim then Estancia. I would agree with those being among the top 100 modern courses in the country, just not sure about 100 overall.

Since he appeared to be writing from the valley, I'm a bit surprised he did not note that 5 of the top 8 in the GD list are up in the mountains somewhere (Flagstaff, Sedona, Payson).

Some of this might relate to the "walkability" thread too as many of those mountain courses are difficult walks, not to mention the housing issues.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 07:50:46 PM »
I do believe many panelists are biased, mostly at least on GD towards Fazio & Nicklaus courses.  

As for Arizona, I have to believe they get alot of panelists there so there is no shortage of votes. As Tom Doak has said, there is only enough room for 100 courses.  New Mexico has none, Nevada has 1 in Shadow Creek which isn't a desert course and Palm Springs has 1 or 2 which probably properly represents the desert courses.  Palm Springs probably could make a better argument that its not represented better than Arizona?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 10:26:59 PM »
Bill Huffman, For the Tribune
"With nearly 400 golf courses of every type imaginable..."

Huh??  
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 10:27:21 PM by MikeCirba »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2007, 10:45:52 PM »
Do you thnk Mr. Huffman will ever re-evaluate his notion of what constitutes great golf?

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2007, 11:32:50 PM »
Perhaps great desert golf is an oxymoron?  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2007, 12:03:25 AM »
Red pulled it off in Carefree.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2007, 12:05:36 AM »
Adam, You continue to be a wealth of golf course knowledge. The Sandhills have been good to you!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 12:12:04 AM »
Adam, I agree with your assessment of Desert Forest where Lawrence managed to somehow pull of a links like feel with fabulous yet subtle fairway contouring and understated green complexes and simple bunkering.  It is a worthy member of many lists, but perhaps enjoys a little bit of favored nation status due to its pioneering.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 09:00:45 AM »
I love desert golf and have as much fun there as anywhere, but are they Top 100 caliber? A lot of the desert layouts are similar, you see the same desert scrub etc...so placing one above an other is difficult. I think that is what happens when it is time to vote. I have never seen Desert Forest so I cannot discuss its merits. But i love the desert and will continue to go back.

One other thing, I loved Troon North (Monument) when I first played it, but it does not look like the same course any longer. All of the housing projects certainly detract from the ambiance of a course IMHO.
Mr Hurricane

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 09:17:08 AM »
Desert Golf in Arizona or Palm Springs is fun and enjoyable but is it great golf?  

Not usually, I think we could probably expand the housing development analysis to the resort course effect.  

A snowbird flies down from the northlands to get some rest and relaxation in the desert.  The resort operator doesn't want to stress our poor tired masses with too much thought, so they have a course built with lots of eye candy and not much substance; push the bunkers to the sides, provide nice broad landing areas and supply more eye candy to drive the beverage cart. Voila la a course that the warming snowbird loves that simply does not impress the well travelled if not jaded course rater.  

Create some strategy and suspense and mix in some beautiful bunkers, a nice old clubhouse and the rater goes ga-ga.  

This is all about knowing your market, if the desert folks want rankings they are going to have to take the risk of building a different kind of golf course.  I wonder whether they are really willing to take that risk?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 09:33:23 AM by W.H. Cosgrove »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 09:32:06 AM »
This should not be limited to Arizona - I've played in the Palm Springs area as well as Las Vegas and desert golf is desert golf.  Considering that you are in the desert conditioning is quite extraordinary in these regions but it is difficult to make a course unique and special.  Jim Engh has brought some different features into Blackstone which to me makes it better than most desert courses, but many have taken issue with is containment mounding.  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2007, 09:36:22 AM »
I love golf in every state...Let's not forget that with 50 states and only 100 courses somebody is going to get shorted.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2007, 09:42:54 AM »
Adam, You continue to be a wealth of golf course knowledge. The Sandhills have been good to you!

I'd say something about constant agreement and ass-kissing, but then again I'm far too agreeable and kiss too much ass to give shit like that.

 ;D ;D

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2007, 10:27:14 AM »
I think TomD is very much on the right track concerning desert courses....if I have the chance to build one [soon], it surely will not have hard contrasting edges.

Good point.  One of the things I like best about Talking Stick North is the seamless transition from grass to native areas.  In some places this is done by having the inside (fairway) side of bunkers more finished and the outside (desert) side melding into the native area.  

Lots of other desert courses it's unfortunately more of an emerald green to dirt and rocks.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2007, 10:42:17 AM »
I think it is a combination of things; bias being only one. Desert settings and golf seem foreign to the traditional golf rater, especfially the east coast, Pacific and heartland residents who are raters.

The hard edge that Paul complaints about is an interesting comment, but one heard many, many times before. Is it that different than other hard edges? The boundary, road, wall or defined hazard edge? Harbor Town certainly has it share of hard edges, but I admit many fall along formal hazards, not wilderness.

At the original Boulders (second nine) Jack Snyder used full circle heads to irrigate the course. The turf established wherever it could. The edge was soft, random and "natural" in terms of look. But, obviously, a sward of grass in the harsh desert was no more "natural" than closely mown turf at St. Andrews.

Among Arizona courses that deserve more respect: Ventana Canyon (Mountain), Grande Valley, The Rim Club, Oakcreek CC, Kierland, Desert Mountain (Renegade), Legend Trail, Silvercreek, and Papago.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matt_Ward

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2007, 10:49:52 AM »
Tom D, et al:

If one is going to use the "housing clutter" argument -- then the same situation should apply to other courses in different parts of the country -- not just AZ. In the Northeast you have courses that were previously out "in the country" and now are engulfed with housing but are still rated very high.

The reality is that sectional bias is certainly a part of at least a percentage of the people who rate courses -- this is not just narrow to AZ but to the greater area of the SW and includes the southern tier of the mountan time zone.

What is that percentage of bias? Well, that's hard to pinpoint with 100% certainty. But when votes are very close there's little doubt in my travels, and in my time as a rater for two different major publications, that such a situation does happen.

You also have a feeling by a number of raters that desert golf is somehow less than real golf because of the unnatural setting for golf in such an arid climate.

Many times you also have raters who only make one or two visits to a given area and forever TAG that area as being incomplete or lacking.

I can say this with a high degree of certainty -- unless you make periodic visits to different areas you will forever hold to an outdated perspective on what is developing.

Huffman's comments -- while not completely accurate when focused alone on AZ -- do have merit when applied more broadly from my own experiences.

P.S. Jerry K:

Blackstone is indeed a fine layout by Engh and should be looked at very carefully for possible national consideration. Or let me put it this way - Blackstone is the far better layout than Sanctuary which is consistently rated by the top pubs as one of the USA's top 100 courses.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2007, 10:55:00 AM »
Could someone list the states that have zero courses on the Golf Mag or Digest top 100's.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2007, 10:59:09 AM »
Matt--

I sometimes wonder about whether some courses get a pass on homes being nearby and some that don't.  There are homes on Winged Foot, Merion East, and Pebble Beach among others, yet for some reason they aren't noticeable and detract from the round.  The knock is made on development courses that the golf course was built with homes in mind and for some reason homes seem to be very noticeable.  Also, years of tree growth help, but that's not going to happen in the desert.  

The one major exception to the development homes issue is Wade Hampton where William McKee did a great job of keeping homes out of site and/or blended in.  I know I'll get blamed for being a homer on this one.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2007, 11:10:58 AM »
Matt:

Most of those desert development courses have homes on both sides of the fairway ... plus they're actively building homes, so there is a bunch of hammering and truck work going on while you're trying to play.  I'm sure that effects some panelists' votes.  

Lots of great courses have some homes -- Merion for one example -- but could you name a couple of top-100 courses in the East with homes on both sides of the fairway?

And Sanctuary doesn't have homes.

John K:

States without a top 100 course:

Maine
Vermont (Ekwanok on GOLFWEEK classic list)
New Hampshire
Connecticut (whenever Yale's condition is keeping it off)
Delaware
West Virginia (Pete Dye Golf Club is #5 modern according to GOLWEEK, but nowhere on other lists)
Kentucky
Mississippi (sometimes Old Waverly gets a mention)
Louisiana
Arkansas (unless Alotian has made the rankings)
North Dakota
South Dakota
Iowa
Montana
Wyoming
New Mexico
Utah
Idaho
Alaska

Just a few years ago, Oregon didn't have a top-100 course either -- now it's got a bunch of them, so good things can happen.  Montana is not long for this list now.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 11:12:17 AM by Tom_Doak »

Matt_Ward

Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2007, 11:12:46 AM »
Adam:

Keep in mind this -- you have certain sections of the country -- take my area of the Northeast -- where secondary courses glom onto the bright light of the more noted neighbors and get rated because they happen to be "in the neighborhood."

No doubt the Northeast is the home of the best overall private golf in the country -- however, there are a number of courses that simply would not be rated if placed in another section and not immediately near to those that are rightly among the country's best.

For what it's worth Adam -- I am not a big time fan of WH and I believe there are a about a dozen other TF courses that get short shrift for national consideration -- see the likes of Glenwild, Karsten Creek, Dallas National, etc, etc. I also think it helps WH that some very connected people play there and have affiliations with other key clubs through the SE.

One unrelated question - is WH now more playable because of improved drainage -- in the two times I have played the course -- in the summer -- it's always exceedingly wet and the turf quite heavy.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias by course raters?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 11:12:58 AM »
I have no problem with houses that border a course with a reasonable amount of setback because most of the time they really don't affect how you play the hole.  Where I have problems most often occurs when there is a house behind a green, and this is especially true on par 3s.  I really liked Troon Country Club but there were a couple of holes, exactly which ones are hard for this old guy to remember, where there were houses directly behind the greens.  They were good par 3s but when you stood over your ball and tried to envision the shot you wanted to hit all you would see is this big house.  You would then have to refocus and locate the flag and other features - it's all very distracting and to me and ruins my perception of the hole.