Midwest PacDunes

« **on:** August 29, 2007, 10:29:25 PM »

So my brother and I were just talking about our trip to Bandon 2 years ago, as we have discussed nearly daily since and my wife, bless her heart, says to me:

"you need to find a course around here (lansing michigan) thats just as good so you can stop talking about Bandon"

my response was basically if I had the kind of money it takes to join any of the good courses in Mi or the midwest, I'd probably have the money to go to Bandon more often.

My question is, am I justified in just not being that excited to pay $300 to play Whistling Straits .... especially considering how artificial it is?

« **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2007, 05:15:33 AM »

JC: Bay Harbor is "the Pebble Beach of the Midwest". Or at least they've said so in their ads for five years, so it must be true.

« **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2007, 06:51:10 AM »

With all do respect to Tom's work at the wonderful Pacific Dunes, how is Whistling Straits more artificial than "PacDunes"

I think one could make a strong argument that more imagination was required at WS than PD, given the massively different sites both had to work with.

Is PD more of a links course because it is by the ocean vs. a lake? JC, have you played WS? If not I think you'd be mighty impressed. Both are world-class courses.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2007, 06:53:11 AM »

I always thought that Pacific Dunes was called "The Bay Harbor of Oregon." Have I been misinformed?

« **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2007, 06:55:15 AM »

JC,

What about Arcadia Bluffs? That's probably about 4 hours from Lansing, if that.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:03:15 AM »

JC,

All you have to do is subscribe to this free email newsletter and they send you deals all the time. http://www.email.kohler.com/DK/2007/69875/69875_p.htm

« **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:30:42 AM »

Arcadia Bluffs and Pacific Dunes should never be mentioned in the same sentence, unless you were claiming that they are both golf courses.........and even then you should tread lightly.......

« **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:33:08 AM »

I was just trying to help the guy find something a little closer to home that might help him out. I have not seen either so I'm just taking a shot in the dark.

« **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:37:37 AM »

just having some fun.......no harm meant

Actually, to me, the course to recommend would be Kingsley Club, it has the Pac Dunes like greens and some of the wild contours, without the ocean views.......

« **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:51:33 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Cunningham on August 30, 2007, 06:51:10 AM

With all do respect to Tom's work at the wonderful Pacific Dunes, how is Whistling Straits more artificial than "PacDunes" I think one could make a strong argument that more imagination was required at WS than PD, given the massively different sites both had to work with.

Is PD more of a links course because it is by the ocean vs. a lake? JC, have you played WS? If not I think you'd be mighty impressed. Both are world-class courses.

Having played both, I'd say that WS is more "artificial", which doesn't in my book equal worse, because of the sheer amount of earth that Dye moved to make it so. He created the terrain, and it probably did take more imagination given the raw land. That doesn't make it better or worse.

One big difference is that Pacific Dunes plays as much like a links course as we've got in the States. Whistling Straits, for me, played like a typical American golf course disguised as links. I wasn't playing bump'n'run shots. I wasn't racing low iron shots into the green. I was leaving sizeable ball marks and checking up iron shots. The areas around the greens weren't all shaved where a putter was a reasonable option from nearby.

Another big difference was I enjoy the course at Pacific Dunes much more. Not because Doak moved less land. Because the holes were more varied and exciting to play. After my first round at Pacific Dunes, I could remember each hole distinctly. After my first round at WS, many holes ran together in my mind. Pacific Dunes doesn't have anything that sticks out as badly as #5 at WS in my mind. I've heard the story about why #5 is what it is. I can appreciate that, but it doesn't lead me to enjoy the hole any more.

Finally, cost is a big difference in my mind. The Bandon Dunes resort philosophy of "all you can play" for $270 is a big difference.

My intent isn't to bash Whistling Straits. I had a good time on that trip. If you live in the Midwest, then it might be cheaper than flying out to Oregon even though the golf is so expensive. I think it is worth a trip for everyone that can afford it. I just don't think it serves as an equal replacement for the Bandon Dunes experience.

« **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2007, 08:50:02 AM »

Having played both Arcadia twice and PacDunes, I think the elusive quality that Pacific offers is the feeling of minimalist intervention, regardless of whether that is true or not. Arcadia, which I enjoy, has more of a manufactured feel to it, as does its cousin across Lake Michigan, WS. Arcadia is only a 2 hour trip from Lansing by car - I would suggest Forest Dunes in Roscommon or perhaps the Lakewood Gailes resort on the Sunrise side of Michigan as alternatives with a more natural feel, if Kingsley cannot be secured.

« **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2007, 10:53:13 AM »

JC,
Yes, you are justified in not being that excited to pay $300 for a round of golf. If you want excellent golf course architecture without having to travel half way across the country I would take a look at Angels Crossing, High Pointe, Greywalls, etc... Not the Bandon golf immersion experience of course, but the price is right and there is plenty of great architecture to see.

« **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:58:50 AM »

Quote from: JC Jones on August 29, 2007, 10:29:25 PM

So my brother and I were just talking about our trip to Bandon 2 years ago, as we have discussed nearly daily since and my wife, bless her heart, says to me:

"you need to find a course around here (lansing michigan) thats just as good so you can stop talking about Bandon"

my response was basically if I had the kind of money it takes to join any of the good courses in Mi or the midwest, I'd probably have the money to go to Bandon more often.

My question is, am I justified in just not being that excited to pay $300 to play Whistling Straits .... especially considering how artificial it is?

Is there something wrong with wanting to talk about Bandon all the time? That seems like normal behavior to me, and shame on your wife for suggesting otherwise.

I think if you need a quick fix, Arcadia Bluffs sounds like a good option. You won't get the the same ambience as Bandon and the course isn't in the same category, but it's definitely worth checking out given its only a couple hours away. The guys I play with regulary absolutely love the place, and one of them has it ranked pretty close to the Bandon courses.

I really enjoy Straits but I've only played it twice and haven't done so since 1999. The prices have escalated to the point where it's priced me out of the market. You can sign-up for that newsletter but they never offer deals for the Straits, only the other three courses. I usually get my annual Kohler fix by taking advantages of these deals and playing Blackwolf Run instead. If you do play Straits, try to get that first tee time otherwise you're staring at a 5 1/2 hr round.

Straits has a little artificial feel to it but it shouldn't deter to the experience. If anything, it works to Pete's advantage as he's able to create some incredible par 3's. For example, the first time you play the 2nd. you might think the hole is right on the water, then you go over to the edge and realize that there are two par 3's even tighter to the water's edge.

I agree that Bandon has more of a true links feel to it, where you are able to manufacture shots and run the ball up to hole locations. I don't remember doing the specifically at Straits, although it has been 8 years since I've played it. I probably didn't have the ability to appreciate, imagine or execute those types of shots back then. I know the fairways are fescue and did provide quite a bit of roll.

« **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2007, 12:06:24 PM »

Bay Harbor is unique because the three nines are very different from each other. One is though the trees, another around a quarry and one with more views of the lake. The golf, however, is only good. Arcadia Bluffs is very good and Whistling Straights is amazing, considering it was a dead flat piece of ground. I would think it spawned a course like Bayonne, because it showed what could be done with great imagination. I like it a Boyne. There a any courses to play the weather in the summer is cooler than WS and the acomodations at the Highlands can rival the American Club.
Kohler, however, wins with quality. But Boyne is good as well. I just like Northern MI better. Petosky is a cool town and there is great golf all around from which to choose.

« **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2007, 12:15:03 PM »

I will offer up two potential public-access Midwest alternatives to Bandon, that may offer up a vaguely similar experience...

1) Erin Hills/Lawsonia, Wisconsin--granted they are not in the same complex, but for the same combined price as one summer round at Bandon, these can be done together in a day or at worst on a quick two-day. The feeling of isolation, such as one can get in the Heartland, is pretty solid at each of these

2) Wild Horse, Nebraska--while I have not been there (yet!), my favorite WI policeman assures me that this is a great get-away and one can really get absorbed in the atmosphere. Certainly the wide-open feeling and the playing conditions can be reminiscent of Bandon. My suspicion is that the cost of getting there, + the multiple rounds, may still be less than just one summer round at Bandon...

Just a couple of thoughts...

« **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2007, 12:40:58 PM »

I am going to petition someone to change the term Midwest.
I live in South Dakota and to get to Lansing I have to drive almost 20 hours east. Michigan, Ohio, and any state east of the Missisippi should be calle the MIDEAST. When I think of the WEST I think of cowboy and Indian movies.

Pacific and Whistling are both great courses. Having played them both I can say that for the dollar spent I would return to PC and I have no interest in going to WS again. PC is more natural - Period, exclamation point!

You are certainly justified in not paying $300 for WS.

« **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2007, 12:41:16 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Cunningham on August 30, 2007, 06:51:10 AM

how is Whistling Straits more artificial than "PacDunes"

Andrew,

You're kidding right?

« **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2007, 12:44:19 PM »

Nothing wrong with Whistling Straits or the whole Kohler experience, IMHO, despite the undeniably "artificial" nature of the experience. Shadow Creek is completely artificial and I loved it both times I played it. Lake Michigan isn't the Pacific Ocean and Whistling Straits isn't as spectacular as Pac Dunes, but for Midwesterners, it's an easy commute to Kohler.

As for Bay Harbor, I wouldn't shed a tear if the entire development slipped into the lake.

« **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2007, 05:38:59 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 30, 2007, 05:15:33 AM

JC: Bay Harbor is "the Pebble Beach of the Midwest". Or at least they've said so in their ads for five years, so it must be true.

Tom D, good point, I cant imagine how that slipped my mind.

I've played Arcadia and Bay Harbor and Arcadia is certainly better than Bay Harbor but it doesnt do a whole lot for me and certainly isnt worth the $175.

I've also played Kingsley and I would be more than content to cruise up to TC for Kingsley if I could either A) afford the membership or B) find a way on to the course with any sort of regularity.

High Pointe and Belvedere are favorites of mine and certainly in the rotation, in fact Im probably going to play one of the two of them on Sunday (Solo in case anyone from Michigan is interested in a Sunday round at either of those two). I think it is a stretch to consider either of them in the class of Kingsley or PacDunes. Although I'd rather play both of those than Arcadia or Bay Harbor.

I have yet to play Forest Dunes or Greywalls but have heard nothing but great comments about them.

I think the only courses that rise to the level of PacDunes are Crystal Downs and Kingsley, unfortunately both of them are private. Therefore leaving me with my original problem, not having the midwest PacDunes experience available.

Call me an iconoclast or against the grain but I dont like a course simply because they charge a lot of money and I dont have much interest in a course that is completely man made.

« **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2007, 05:41:27 PM »

Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on August 30, 2007, 12:06:24 PM

Bay Harbor is unique because the three nines are very different from each other. One is though the trees, another around a quarry and one with more views of the lake. The golf, however, is only good. Arcadia Bluffs is very good and Whistling Straights is amazing, considering it was a dead flat piece of ground. I would think it spawned a course like Bayonne, because it showed what could be done with great imagination. I like it a Boyne. There a any courses to play the weather in the summer is cooler than WS and the acomodations at the Highlands can rival the American Club.
Kohler, however, wins with quality. But Boyne is good as well. I just like Northern MI better. Petosky is a cool town and there is great golf all around from which to choose.

I disagree re Bay Harbor being "good." I find little redeeming about that course other than the lake. Same can be said for Arcadia, take away the lake and is it really better than Forest Dunes (have not played) or Belvedere? Especially considering it is $50 and $100 more respectively?

« **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2007, 09:13:25 PM »

JC -
I can't see putting Bay Harbor and Arcadia in the same class. You may have a hard time with a Michigan course charging $180 but that has nothing to do with it being a good or bad course, it has to do with economics. Go play 36 or play twilight if you don't want the full rate. Think how mcuh you save versus having to stay a night at the American club if you want to play Whistling Straits in prime season.

I have a hard time feeling too sorry for someone who lives in Michigan as you have many more choises than most of us on the public side of the midwest, all the courses talked about blow away anything in most states outside of the Carolinas, California or Oregon -- now if this was January it might be another story. We haven't even talked about Tullymore, Pilgrim's Run, Hemlock, etc.

Buck

« **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:14:28 PM »

A few years ago I cut out an article about Lakewood Shores Resort in Oscondo. Never been there but it sounded promising.

And if I can drive to Wild Horse from Oregon, surely you coould get there in less time from Michigan. Just head away from Ohio and you'll feel more relaxed.

I've played Arcadia and Bay Harbor, didn't feel any vibes. I did at Kingsley and Black Forest, HIgh Pointe

« **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:33:44 PM »

JC,
Gotta go with Buck on this one, I can't feel very sorry for you living in the state with as much good affordable public golf as any in the nation. It seems like just about anybody should be able to find some public course they like in Michigan, whether its Bay Harbor, Arcadia, Tullymore, Angels Crossing, Pilgrim's Run, etc...lots of different styles of architecture.

I do agree with you though, Crystal and Kingsley are the two best I've played in Michigan. Lost Dunes and Point O'Woods are great too, but all private. Tullymore is my personal favorite of the public set. I moved away (from South Bend, IN) with a lot of courses left to be played.

« **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:36:27 PM »

Quote from: Buck Wolter on August 30, 2007, 09:13:25 PM

JC -
I can't see putting Bay Harbor and Arcadia in the same class. You may have a hard time with a Michigan course charging $180 but that has nothing to do with it being a good or bad course, it has to do with economics. Go play 36 or play twilight if you don't want the full rate. Think how mcuh you save versus having to stay a night at the American club if you want to play Whistling Straits in prime season.

I have a hard time feeling too sorry for someone who lives in Michigan as you have many more choises than most of us on the public side of the midwest, all the courses talked about blow away anything in most states outside of the Carolinas, California or Oregon -- now if this was January it might be another story. We haven't even talked about Tullymore, Pilgrim's Run, Hemlock, etc.

Buck

Buck

I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I was not complaining about the quality of public golf in Michigan. We have some great courses (i.e. Greywalls, Forest Dunes, High Pointe, Tullymore, Pilgrims, Belvedere, etc). But that wasnt the point.

My point was that I didnt think Whistling, Arcadia or Bay Harbor lived up to the class of Bandon, despite carrying an equal to or more expensive price tag. While the obvious response to that is "of course." There are many, including Golf Magazine, who dont think those courses are too far behind.

There are, however, courses equal to or near Pac, they just happen to be private so they dont fall into consideration.

Pete

Ive also heard good things about the Gailes at the Lakewood shores and Id be interested to hear anyone's reviews of the place. I agree re Arcadia and Bay Harbor, not that I am a snob because I am way too new at the study of architecture to be, but both of those courses just seem superficial.

« **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2007, 06:26:37 AM »

Quote from: Mark Arata on August 30, 2007, 07:30:42 AM

Arcadia Bluffs and Pacific Dunes should never be mentioned in the same sentence, unless you were claiming that they are both golf courses.........and even then you should tread lightly.......

You could put Arcadia Bluffs out at the Bandon Resort and it would fit in just fine. Only reason people don't like it on thi web-site is because of the architect.

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