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Bob Barriger

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Is green speed affected by humidity?
« on: August 29, 2007, 05:42:25 PM »
We seem to have some variance in green speed at my home course and they say and believe them that they do not change the green cutting heights.  How much variance can be attributed to humidity?

Joe Hancock

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2007, 05:49:32 PM »
There's no way to answer "how much", but it does affect speed.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Greg Tallman

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2007, 06:27:46 PM »
Ask them if they have changed the rollers from grooved to smooth.

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2007, 06:39:43 PM »
How much does humidity change greenspeed?

It changes it as the moisture from humidity gets into the surface but I'd say in any and all cases it would have to be less than a foot, maybe even half that at most.

About a year ago the USGA told me there can be things like a "wet 11" and a "dry 11".

My first reaction was for God's Sake an 11 is just an 11. But maybe they have a point.

All I know is whether it's wet or dry if the average stimp reading works out to an 11 then it's just a plain 11 wet or dry.  ;)

On the other hand, if they were trying to tell me that a wet 11 and a dry 11 makes the golf ball roll differently or different distances for some reason then I'm going to have to get back on that claim.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 06:42:08 PM by TEPaul »

Greg Tallman

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2007, 06:57:42 PM »
Perhaps they were just noting that a "wet 11" could turn into a "dry 12" as conditions change??????

jeffwarne

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2007, 08:24:38 PM »
It absolutely affects it.
by at least a foot.
throw in a little breeze and things get extra spicy.

Surely you would recognise that a super dry cut and rolled green will be faster than one prepped the same in high humidity (moisture)
The effect of cutting and rolling is cumulatve as well, so greens prepped the same on Fri-Sun will be faster on Sunday.
(assuming similar humidity)

very sad that golfers expect all this though-half the greens I've played in the UK weren't cut that day anyway.

Nothing beats a 19 handicap telling me the greens are slow though.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 09:36:28 AM »
Bob,
Some info about humidity and green speeds.

http://www.usga.org/turf/regional_updates/regional_reports/midcontinent/06-30-2005.html


TEPaul,
Perhaps it's like the the bow wave of a boat, it saps the energy from the ball. Two greens, both stimping at 11', one dry, one wet;  the longer the putt- the slower the wet 11 will be.
It's like the difference between two greens cut at the same height, but one is thatchy and one isn't. As the balls lose momentum the thatchy green grabs more and is, in effect, the slower of the two.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 09:47:11 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JESII

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2007, 10:34:41 AM »
TEP,

That "wet" versus "dry" speed sounds to me like the trickle effect you speak of. "Wet" should have less trickle, but may be the same speed on the flat as "Dry".

Steven_Biehl

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2007, 12:33:59 PM »
Humidity does not effect putting green speed.  

And, it is very difficult to keep the same green speed from day to day all year.  Even at the same height of cut, the green speeds will vary on a regular basis.  

The one weather condition that seems to have a correlation with green speed is the night-time temperature.  The higher the night-time temperature, the slower the green speed.  This is likely due to more growth.  

I would attribute the slower green speed in the USGA link to the increase in temperature, not the humidity.  Humidity is higher in the morning (6am), than it is in the afternoon (3pm).  So, humidity doesn't explain the slower green speeds.  The greens are slower in the afternoon because the grass has had 8 hours of growth.
"He who creates a cricket ground is at best a good craftsman but the creator of a great hole is an artist.  We golfers can talk, and sometimes do talk considerable nonsense too, about our favourite holes for hours together." - Bernard Darwin, Golf

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2007, 01:35:56 PM »
Steven,
I'm not arguing with you, but here in NW Ct the day started out cool with clear skies and low humidity, this afternoon it's 'grey' from the increasing humidity. We get quite a few days like this.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JESII

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2007, 03:53:51 PM »
Humidity does not effect putting green speed.  

And, it is very difficult to keep the same green speed from day to day all year.  Even at the same height of cut, the green speeds will vary on a regular basis.  



Why is that Steven?


Steven_Biehl

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2007, 08:28:14 PM »
Jim,
If you had cool temperatures and clear skies, I would guess that you had dew on the grass in the morning?  If you had dew, then the humidity had to be high enough to condense onto the leaf blade.  Remember, the humidity always feels higher in warmer temperatures because your body is sweating to cool itself.

Jes,
It all depends on what is going on maintenance-wise.  A course can use walk mowers one day, use a triplex the next, then sharpen reels, and each one will have an effect on the speed of the green more that the weather conditions will.  Those are the maintenace practices that golfers will likely not know about.  Then there is verti-cutting, topdressing,  grooming, which may be more noticeable for the golfers, and also have a significant effect on green speed.
"He who creates a cricket ground is at best a good craftsman but the creator of a great hole is an artist.  We golfers can talk, and sometimes do talk considerable nonsense too, about our favourite holes for hours together." - Bernard Darwin, Golf

Donnie Beck

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 05:38:29 AM »
Humidity will DEFINATELY affect green speed.. With High humidity your thatch layer will expand creating softer slower greens.

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 10:43:23 PM »
"TEPaul,
Perhaps it's like the the bow wave of a boat, it saps the energy from the ball. Two greens, both stimping at 11', one dry, one wet;  the longer the putt- the slower the wet 11 will be.
It's like the difference between two greens cut at the same height, but one is thatchy and one isn't. As the balls lose momentum the thatchy green grabs more and is, in effect, the slower of the two."

Jim Kennedy:

If a green is rolling at an 11 it doesn't matter if it's wet or dry----eg it's just rolling at an 11.

How can you say, then, that the wet one is rolling slower? In that case it either wouldn't be rolling at 11 or the drier one would be rolling at greater than 11.

Have you ever actually done a legitimate stimpmeter reading test?

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2007, 10:55:23 PM »
"TEP,
That "wet" versus "dry" speed sounds to me like the trickle effect you speak of. "Wet" should have less trickle, but may be the same speed on the flat as "Dry"."

Sully:

I'm no physicist but that just sounds illogical to me.

I've been assuming that the really serious "trickle" effect I've spoken of is basically due to lack of friction on the green to slow the ball down and bring it to a halt. If that "trickle" effect only happens on some degree of slope (not flat) then maybe you have a point there. I just don't know that the "trickle" effect is not there to some extent on flat putts too when it comes to measuring something like green speed via an "official" stimpmeter reading test which as I'm sure you know is only done on basically flat surfaces.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 10:55:48 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2007, 10:59:06 PM »
I'll tell you something else too Sully about stimpmeter readings and that is I'm beginning to think a lot of people who do them don't do them the way you're supposed to.

Some probably don't even realize there's a limitation on the two way differential to be official. I see others stimping greens who pull the stimpmeter up way too fast basically bouncing the ball off the stimpmeter and firing it way farther than it would go if they did it right.

I even had one super tell me he was getting so pissed at his club asking for higher stimpmeter readings that he said he was going to take a hacksaw and take about six inches off his stimpmeter.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 11:02:14 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2007, 11:02:58 PM »
What's worse...artificially high stimp readings? Or failed attempts at attaining the desired actual speed?

JESII

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2007, 11:03:54 PM »
What's the maximum differential for a reading to be official?

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2007, 11:21:59 PM »
The differential shouldn't be more than 8" for the first series of three balls and the differential for the average of both series shouldn't be greater than 18".

Some of these greens are getting so fast today that some supers only have a section of one or two greens they can do an official reading on.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 11:24:31 PM by TEPaul »

Craig Sweet

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2007, 10:08:00 AM »
I know a super that does no stemp readings, but if a golfer should ask he says they are stemping at 9.5...or 10...or whatever speed suits him on that particular day...he knows that 99% of golfers don't know a 9.5 from a 10.5...or a 10 from an 11.

If I had a dollar for every time a golfer has approached me while I'm cutting pins and has said " wow, these greens are way faster than yesterday, what have you done?"  when we have done nothing different, I'd be able to quit my job and play more golf...speed is a perception...for example, a hole location can make a green seem fast or slow.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2007, 03:33:57 PM »
TEPaul,
Yes, I have, and I've accompanied our course raters while they've done it.

You said: "In that case it either wouldn't be rolling at 11 or the drier one would be rolling at greater than 11."

I didn't say that isn't the case, just offering up a thought on why the USGA might mention the difference between wet or dry.

It doesn't seem to hold any water for you.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2007, 03:54:08 PM »
JimK:

I was sort of kidding when I said they told me that. Although what was said is 'there's a wet 11 and a dry 11.' Obviously, if one looks at that statement of course that can be true in either case. It just sort of sounded to me like they meant the ball rolled differently or perhaps different distances between a wet 11 and a dry 11 and of course that can't be true or one or the other wouldn't really be an 11 would it?  ;)

Adrian_Stiff

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2007, 04:05:34 PM »
Surely humidity = moisture = water content = a change in the plant = change in the speed..... on the basis wet = slow and dry = fast
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JESII

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Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2007, 05:48:39 PM »
I guess the difference is that the wet 11 has the potential to dry out and speed up...in this instance it makes sense for them to think along those lines as they are probably typically setting pins for their events in the early AM when it is usually wet from dew...

TEPaul

Re:Is green speed affected by humidity?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2007, 08:50:22 PM »
"I guess the difference is that the wet 11 has the potential to dry out and speed up...in this instance it makes sense for them to think along those lines as they are probably typically setting pins for their events in the early AM when it is usually wet from dew..."

Sully:

That's probably very true. When they mentioned that wet 11/dry 11 thing to me they also mentioned they think the maximum speed on greens during the day probably happens around 11am-noon timeframe or so.