In your opinion, what defines fairness in course architecture.

For me, when luck takes over too much.

But someone once told me "luck is when opportunity and preparation converge".  I think there's a certain truth to this, but not always.

I'm curious to see what everyone has to say about this topic.

Fair enough  

If more often than not a shot taken turns into a lucky bounce, deflection, etc.

And this occurs more often than not.

For example, take ten shots in the same conditions, from the same spot, with the same swing and more often than not the result could turn out completely different and in such a way that it creates significant advantage or disadvantage.

I'm more interested in seeing what everyone has to say and what they define as being fair.

Neither  

To your comment about Pebble, does it make it unfair if everyone is subjected to the same?

Sounds like you don't like unpredictability, or is it that you prefer predictability?

Patrick,
Here is a passage out of our book "Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards" that sums up my position as well as Forrest's:  

The Concept of Fairness

The modern pursuit of fairness and equity has not necessarily been good for the game of golf. A pastime that once had only two rules, golf has now evolved to where a typed booklet of over 150-pages is required to explain the game. Ever since it was decided that “play it as it lies” and “the rub of the green” needed to be tweaked, the game seems to have suffered.  Far too much time, too much money, and too much attention is now directed to making sure every good shot is rewarded and that perfect playing conditions leave no one with an “unfair” disadvantage. This mindset has led to expensive maintenance practices and less creative and more sterile playing grounds. Heaven forbid that two similar shots could potentially result in two distinct outcomes—one good and one bad. That would just not be fair—or would it?

Have golf architects and the clients they work with forgotten what golf is really all about? The game was never meant to emulate physics, where every action equates to an equal and opposite reaction. As with life, golf is expected to have ups and downs. Some days a golfer might do everything right, and yet the result still turns out bad. Other times, a lucky bounce or carom might lead to good fortune even when the swing and all its results should have led to an awful mess. Golf can teach us many lessons about life, but only if we allow skill, luck, and fate all to remain part of the game.

If all the uncertainty and unpredictable outcomes are conditioned away, what tests and challenges will remain? Aren’t those bumps in the road of life just like the hazards of golf? In many ways it is the triumph of overcoming setbacks that keeps us energized. Were it not for ordeals, it would only be a matter of time until we would become complacent and our lives (or rounds) filled with boredom.

When we think of “fairness,” we are reminded of a situation that occurred at The Old Course at St. Andrews. Walking up the 18th fairway after hitting our final tee shots, one member of our group cringed at the site of his ball lying in the middle of Grannie Clark’s Wynd, a macadam road that crosses the 1st and 18th fairways. The thought crossed his mind, “Here we are playing the grandest of all golf courses and this perfectly struck drive on the final hole has found a lone stretch of rockhard road in the center of the fairway. What a bad break. What poor luck to deserve such an unfair fate.” You see, in Scotland, and especially on The Old Course, you still play it as it lies, and this little macadam path is considered an integral part of the golf course. There is no free drop to gain relief. No automatic allowance that says you can place the ball back on forgiving turf to play your next stroke. No, you are stuck with the situation and you deal with it the best you can.

As the golfer prepared to play his shot from the tightest of lies, one couldn’t help but notice the spectators watching his misfortune from the fence rail along the hole. As his club swept toward the ball and picked it cleanly off the hard dark surface there was a sense of elation as it rose quickly and somehow managed to scurry up onto the green surface, coming to rest about 30 feet from the flagstick.

The golfer’s walk to the green was neither one he nor his playing partners would ever forget. Every one of the on-lookers had applauded the shot. Two putts later, the golfer scored one of the greatest pars, and most memorable moments of his golfing career. And all thanks to what looked like a dire and “unfair” circumstance.

But that is golf. Many of the elements that add so much richness to the game may be lost in our pursuit of “fairness.” There is too much at stake. The concept of fairnessmust be tempered at all cost.

Mark

"Fair is a place they judge pigs and pies--it has NOTHING to do with the game of golf."

Interestingly, the Kansas State Fair and Prairie Dunes are located in the same town...

We now return to our regularly scheduled posting.

K

Pretty good Mark.

You clearly didn't fall for the fairness trap I set.

I guess I got this topic going because I'm a little tired of fairness this and fairness that I seem to read on a lot of the posts.

Patrick,
Here is a passage out of our book "Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards" that sums up my position as well as Forrest's:  

The Concept of Fairness

The modern pursuit of fairness and equity has not necessarily been good for the game of golf. A pastime that once had only two rules, golf has now evolved to where a typed booklet of over 150-pages is required to explain the game. Ever since it was decided that “play it as it lies” and “the rub of the green” needed to be tweaked, the game seems to have suffered.  Far too much time, too much money, and too much attention is now directed to making sure every good shot is rewarded and that perfect playing conditions leave no one with an “unfair” disadvantage. This mindset has led to expensive maintenance practices and less creative and more sterile playing grounds. Heaven forbid that two similar shots could potentially result in two distinct outcomes—one good and one bad. That would just not be fair—or would it?

Have golf architects and the clients they work with forgotten what golf is really all about? The game was never meant to emulate physics, where every action equates to an equal and opposite reaction. As with life, golf is expected to have ups and downs. Some days a golfer might do everything right, and yet the result still turns out bad. Other times, a lucky bounce or carom might lead to good fortune even when the swing and all its results should have led to an awful mess. Golf can teach us many lessons about life, but only if we allow skill, luck, and fate all to remain part of the game.

If all the uncertainty and unpredictable outcomes are conditioned away, what tests and challenges will remain? Aren’t those bumps in the road of life just like the hazards of golf? In many ways it is the triumph of overcoming setbacks that keeps us energized. Were it not for ordeals, it would only be a matter of time until we would become complacent and our lives (or rounds) filled with boredom.

When we think of “fairness,” we are reminded of a situation that occurred at The Old Course at St. Andrews. Walking up the 18th fairway after hitting our final tee shots, one member of our group cringed at the site of his ball lying in the middle of Grannie Clark’s Wynd, a macadam road that crosses the 1st and 18th fairways. The thought crossed his mind, “Here we are playing the grandest of all golf courses and this perfectly struck drive on the final hole has found a lone stretch of rockhard road in the center of the fairway. What a bad break. What poor luck to deserve such an unfair fate.” You see, in Scotland, and especially on The Old Course, you still play it as it lies, and this little macadam path is considered an integral part of the golf course. There is no free drop to gain relief. No automatic allowance that says you can place the ball back on forgiving turf to play your next stroke. No, you are stuck with the situation and you deal with it the best you can.

As the golfer prepared to play his shot from the tightest of lies, one couldn’t help but notice the spectators watching his misfortune from the fence rail along the hole. As his club swept toward the ball and picked it cleanly off the hard dark surface there was a sense of elation as it rose quickly and somehow managed to scurry up onto the green surface, coming to rest about 30 feet from the flagstick.

The golfer’s walk to the green was neither one he nor his playing partners would ever forget. Every one of the on-lookers had applauded the shot. Two putts later, the golfer scored one of the greatest pars, and most memorable moments of his golfing career. And all thanks to what looked like a dire and “unfair” circumstance.

But that is golf. Many of the elements that add so much richness to the game may be lost in our pursuit of “fairness.” There is too much at stake. The concept of fairnessmust be tempered at all cost.

Mark

There is no place for "fairness" in golf....it is what it is.  

As Tiger likes to say "it's all right there in front of you" and how you play it, how the ball bounces, how the wind blows, etc. is different for everyone that plays what is "right there in front of you" at any given moment.

I have never really encountered architecture that I considered unfair but I have seen some cases of set up and particularly hole locations that were unfair because the ball wouldn't stop near the hole from any angle.  Uphill putts roll back.  That ain't fair and it certainly wasn't the architects intent.  But it's pretty rare and often a function of seasonally poor turf quality.

When I was at Oakmont during the Open, I was standing alongside the (fantastic) 10th fairway. Jim Furyk hit a short iron approach, probably a wedge, and it landed what appeared to be about 3-5 feet from the hole. It then started a slow trickle down to about 20 feet past the hole, which was up front that day.

I thought to myself, man, he's gotta love that shot.

The guy standing next to me turned to his buddy next to him and said, now that's just not fair.

So, while most on here understand how fairness may or may not apply to the game, I'd guess most outside of the site do not.

Phil:

I've often wondered if there really is any wind effect of note on the 12th at Augusta, or whether it is really mostly a rumor started by the club to get inside the players' heads.  All they need is a little bit of doubt about their true distance and the supreme confidence which is Tour pros' greatest asset starts to come unravelled.

I had this happen as well recently at Darkhorse.  Sadistic pin placements on crests.  I then noticed it was also probably for turf condition reasons.  Lots of dry spots where normal pin placements would be.

I have never really encountered architecture that I considered unfair but I have seen some cases of set up and particularly hole locations that were unfair because the ball wouldn't stop near the hole from any angle.  Uphill putts roll back.  That ain't fair and it certainly wasn't the architects intent.  But it's pretty rare and often a function of seasonally poor turf quality.

Tom Doak,
Is there a wind effect on # 12 at Augusta?
Having grown up 50 yards over the fence at Augusta Country Club, I'd say no, although I am aware certain areas of certain courses can funnel the wind.

Having also jumped the fence and played the hole numerous times,(albeit it mainly in summer wind conditions when AGNC was closed) I'd say there was no noticeable wind effect other than
one you'd find on any other hole in a hilly area surrounded by massive pines.

I'd say the lack of depth to the green, coupled with the fact that the hole gets longer as the pin is more right (the opposite of a right handers miss pattern) makes yardage and shot miscalculations more evident and therefore more painful.

I'm sure the same caddies that will swear that grain affects the putts on the most perfect (and often dead) bent greens will swear I'm wrong.