[Ryan Farrow]

I just wanted to know if you guys have experienced some other golf holes out there that just did not feel right. Whether the hole in question is just so short, boring, oddly routed, or just so dumb that you walk away from the hole feeling like you were cheated.

For me this happened for the first time that I can remember at We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. Since I don't have a picture I mine as well not even tell you what hole it was but I am sure everyone who has played this course knows what I am talking about.

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
I have photos of a fair amount of the We-Ko-Pa holes, but I'm admittedly clueless as to which hole you mean.

I've played a few headscratchers...most on courses people outside of Indiana would never have heard of.

#5 Knollwood West (Granger, IN)
#4 Longaberger
#7 Signal Point Club (Niles, MI)
#5 Brookwood GC (Buchanan, MI)
#4 Old Orchard GC (Elkhart, IN)
#9 Cse at Aberdeen (Valparaiso, IN)
#6 Culver Academy Course (#1 on Ran's profile)...gotta admit I don't get that one.

Interestingly enough, all but the Brookwood hole are par fives.

I'm sure I could add more if I took the time to think about it.

[Roger Tufts]

While we're on the point of Renaissance, #7 didn't feel like golf. Also the new #6 at Va-Jo-Wa Golf Course in Maine.

[Josh Smith]

I guess we have different meanings when we say "golf holes that don't feel like golf holes".  For me that is a good thing!

I often describe my favorite golf holes as "golf holes that don't feel like golf holes"  

Holes like 9 at Pacific Dunes, 6 at Kingsley Club, 9 at Cypress Point are head scratchers and at first glance or first play don't feel like golf holes, (don't resemble anything I had ever seen or played before), but are my favorite holes in golf.

Josh

[Roger Tufts]

Ryan,
I have photos of a fair amount of the We-Ko-Pa holes, but I'm admittedly clueless as to which hole you mean.

I'm in the same boat. I thought for a good while and couldn't come up with anything.

[Ryan Farrow]

Maybe it was not as obvious as I imagined, but #9.  

Also, what did you guys think about #7, the blind but driveable par 4.  


Andy, what was it about some of the golf holes that you didn't like.

[Roger Tufts]

I don't remember 9 standing out as odd, but I remember #7. Its different, but well bunkered.

For me, #7 at Renaissance was just ridiculously artificial, cut into the side of a mountain rather than playing around it, on it, below it, or on the side of it. I realize the hole is new, but the side-hill penalty on the left side is a joke because none of the grass is long enough to even stop the ball from running down to the fairway.

#6 at Va-Jo-Wa is just like a joke in my mind. I liked the old eighth hole as it was drivable but with penalty of bunkers/trees. This hole is new and its a 2 shotter going 5-iron + wedge. Severe dog-leg and if you don't hit the green, you're screwed, because the ground is so hard behind the green that your ball bounces deep into the woods reliably, and there is a pond front and right. Left is the only bail-out.

Both of these holes just aren't golf to me.

[Chris Moore]

There are no golf holes on the entire course at Furry Creek in Vancouver.

[Andy Troeger]

Maybe it was not as obvious as I imagined, but #9.  

Also, what did you guys think about #7, the blind but driveable par 4.  

Andy, what was it about some of the golf holes that you didn't like.

Well, not surprisingly #9 was not a hole I bothered to photograph. I did not think it one of the better holes on the course, although it seemed to be a toned-down version of the short threes at Warren and Colorado GC. I still thought it had some merit as the front part of the green was a narrow challenge with the bunkers short and on both sides. The back pins seemed like they wouldn't be too tough to access. Not a great hole, but I've seen much worse.

I liked #7 although I don't think I would ever try to go for it. That was actually the only downside of all the short fours at WKPS, none of them really seemed worth the risk of hitting the driver except potentially #10. At the same time, none of them were pushovers which I did like, and you COULD hit driver on any of them to get on or around the green, you just better be accurate and hit to the correct side of the hole. Granted, I'm erratic off the tee so that has something to do with taking my chances on something like that. I like the green at #7 because a lay-up to the wide left side is left with a really tough approach to most pins.

Regarding the other holes I mentioned, most are oddly treed dogleg holes. #7 at Signal Point for example is through a huge forest and would best be played 2-iron, to corner #1, 8-iron to corner #2, wedge to the green. There's no other way to go. The CGA hole is a sweeping blind dogleg that turns left with the fairway sloping right on the 2nd shot into long grass with in-course OB on the left. The Brookwood hole is a 375 par four with about a 15 yard landing area with a lake on one side and the 4th tee on the other (guess where everyone hits it...FORE!!!!!). Aberdeen is a 3-iron off the tee par five because the fairway runs out followed by a long carry 3-wood second to get down in shape for an approach. You probably are getting the trend...

[Greg Beaulieu]

There are no golf holes on the entire course at Furry Creek in Vancouver.

You know, when I saw this subject line I had a similar thought about a course I've never seen discussed here, the Founders -- used to be called the Gauntlet -- at St. James Plantation near Southport, NC. It was designed by P.B. Dye and opened around 1991. I played it right around the time it opened and the only words to describe it were "bizarre". I recall a par 3 where the green was essentially a large mound with aprons on either side. With the pin on top of the mound -- which seemed to be maybe 15 feet high -- you had to hit a perfect shot or face a ridiculous putt. I recall a short par 4 on the back side where there was no obvious place to aim your drive. It went on and on... a completely absurd course.

[Ryan Farrow]

Maybe it was not as obvious as I imagined, but #9.  

Also, what did you guys think about #7, the blind but driveable par 4.  

Andy, what was it about some of the golf holes that you didn't like.

I liked #7 although I don't think I would ever try to go for it. That was actually the only downside of all the short fours at WKPS, none of them really seemed worth the risk of hitting the driver except potentially #10. At the same time, none of them were pushovers which I did like, and you COULD hit driver on any of them to get on or around the green, you just better be accurate and hit to the correct side of the hole. Granted, I'm erratic off the tee so that has something to do with taking my chances on something like that. I like the green at #7 because a lay-up to the wide left side is left with a really tough approach to most pins.

I though#7 was a pretty big gamble and I am sure there are a some people out there not like us who probably don't like it but I am a pretty big fan. I don't think I would ever try to do something like that, but with their reputation I am sure they can afford to take some risks. I got quite a kick out of smashing a driver over the hill to what I though was a perfect position, but found myself 20 yards short and just to the right of the center FW bunker. They also had a sucker pin tucked right behind the green side bunker. So what I though was a great drive left me with a very tight 30 yard pitch over the bunker to put one close or just play safe and land in on the fat part of the green, away from the hole, which I did. Very neat hole. But #9........ not so much.

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
Sounds like our thoughts on #7 were similar. I really like the first three short fours there, with the wild green and center bunker and #10 and steep slope on #2. The green at #2 reminded me a less severe version of #5 at Crystal Downs actually.

Saguaro is probably my favorite course of those played in AZ. If all goes well I am going to see Forest Highlands and Seven Canyons soon so I reserve the right to change my mind.

[Roger Tufts]

Saguaro is probably my favorite course of those played in AZ.

Agreed. Played Apache Stronghold, Wildfire (Faldo), We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), and Talking Stick. Talking Stick comes in a close 2nd though, was in GREAT shape when we were there.

[Andy Troeger]

Roger,
Only one of those three I've played is Talking Stick North. I don't think its close between the two, the land at WKPS is just so much more interesting.

My next two in AZ would be The Rim and The Estancia Club.

[Ryan Farrow]

Roger, conditioning aside, nothing comes close to Apache. I still need to go back to Saguaro when its not 115 out and I'm riding around in a golf cart. But all the other courses you mentioned are way up there. If you have any connections you need to check out Southern Dunes which is now Royal Dunes. Its a Schmidt and Curley design just like the Faldo course you mentioned.

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