[ChipRoyce]

I went to "The Open Doctor's" website and was very surprised to see a number of his renovations listed as "award winning courses" with the suggestion that The Country Club, Baltusrol and others are Rees Jones courses.

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/awards/awards_award.php

Does think that he should have taken the time to note that these are renovations? Shouldn't he also mention the orig. designer?

The current presentation of this info at best is erroneous and at worst could be perceived as deceptive.

[Garland Bayley]

What a sleezeball! No wonder Bobby doesn't get along with him. If you click on the course name, it gives you more specific information without ever mentioning the original designer!

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Chip,

I pointed out this exact thing in the Resumes for Architects thread that was going around a couple of weeks ago, and it didn't even lift an eye-brow much less get a response.

I guess folks in here are OK with that, but I came to the same conclusion that you did.

[Phil_the_Author]

Chip and Kalen,

In my opinion I think you need to take a complete look at his website before ripping him on this. Under the ehading of "Courses" you will find a listing of subjects including one that reads "Renovation Courses."

All of those mentioned and more are listed.

What you will also find is that rees included his "Co-Designer" who worked along with him, thus giving proper credit where many other architects do not. In addition, if you take a moment to read through them, you will find he even mentions wwork done on them by the course superintendents where applicable and proper (e.g. - Baltusrol).

I believe the "Award-Winning Courses" section reflects awards given AFTER his firm had worked on them.

I think he is innocent on this idea that he is "erroneous" and is being "deceptive" in this.

[Garland Bayley]

...I believe the "Award-Winning Courses" section reflects awards given AFTER his firm had worked on them.

I think he is innocent on this idea that he is "erroneous" and is being "deceptive" in this.

Gotta call BS on this. The same awards were given before the firm worked on the course. If he wanted to say that Baltusrol moved up 5 places or whatever after his work he would have had to give credit to the work of the previous architect(s), which he didn't even when you follow his links to gain more information.

[Phil_the_Author]

Garland, regardles of what awards these courses received befor he worked on them, didn't these awards come after?

I see it as a list, nothing more, and I don't find it misleading in the least. I think you are ascribing motivations that I don't believe he has. But that is just me.

[Joel_Stewart]

I see it as a list, nothing more, and I don't find it misleading in the least. I think you are ascribing motivations that I don't believe he has. But that is just me.

Knowing Rees a little bit I agree and doubt he has any dubious intent.  These are award winning courses before or possibly after and it just shows his body of work.  

Regardless, any person who is going to hire Rees or any other architect knows their background and body of work.

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I'm in agreeance with you...I think its BS.

Phillip

I'll tell you why..

First off why would he have any of this on his website in the first place?  Its all self-serving isn't it? His motivations are clearly to attract additional work by listing his "alleged" accolades on previous courses.

Secondly, if the existing course was already in place and he added a few tees, how does the constitute him to adding/creating value to the course?  This is akin to my buddy building a computer from scratch with motherboard, CPU, RAM, hard drive, DVD drive, power source, etc, etc.  And then after he puts the case on, I screw in the last couple of screws and say "look at me, come look at what I've built".

And thirdly and most damaging in my book, is how will a future client who doesn't have a clue about golf course design history supposed to differentiate on what is really his work?


I very much would guess he has devious and/or misleading intentions by including every last course that he every touched.  I am however not saying this is unique.  There is hardly a week or two go by where some high profile figure doesn't gets fired because they mis-represented themselves on a resume/vita.

[Michael Blake]

I agree with Philip.  


Pinehurst #2 is under his "Award Winning Courses."  Here's what's said when you click on it:

 Pinehurst Country Club (Course Number 2)
Pinehurst, North Carolina

   
 The best-known of the Pinehurst complex of golf courses, this old Donald Ross course hosted the 1999 U.S. Open. In preparation for the 2005 Open, we added back tees on selected holes.
Redesign: 1996, 2004
Resort


I'd give the guy a break.  Seems legit to me.


Posted by: Kalen Braley

And thirdly and most damaging in my book, is how will a future client who doesn't have a clue about golf course design history supposed to differentiate on what is really his work?

They would know more if they searched his entire website as I think they would, not just the "Awards" section






 

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Michael,

My apologies to Rees Jones. I now think probably he had no intention of deceiving, but simply did not carry through with complete information on all entries.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do get a laugh out of Rees the promoter. It does come across as a bit much.

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,

I already knew that before posting here, and its still bogus.

Why would you add a couple of tee boxes on a course, and then highlight the course in your awards list?  To me that still smacks of someone desperately shouting out:  "Look at me, look at what I did."  

Or it could be interpreted as "My skills are so good, they acutally let me make modifications to a highly esteemed golf course"

Either way, is this who you want to hand the reigns over to for your next job?  Maybe its just me, and maybe its just because I love Ayn Rand books, but this kind of stuff is a huge turn-off in my mind.

There is one bright side though, it would allow me to eliminate one more candidate if I were calling the shots.

[Doug Ralston]

Hey;

Reese, whatever you think of his site; has done some good work both on origionals and renovations. It is popular to bang at certain architects here. You need also give credit to them for what they do well, rather than constantly sing the prevailing song.

Just a thought.

Doug

[Mike Sweeney]

Why would you add a couple of tee boxes on a course, and then highlight the course in your awards list?  To me that still smacks of someone desperately shouting out:  "Look at me, look at what I did."  

Or it could be interpreted as "My skills are so good, they acutally let me make modifications to a highly esteemed golf course"

Either way, is this who you want to hand the reigns over to for your next job?  Maybe its just me, and maybe its just because I love Ayn Rand books, but this kind of stuff is a huge turn-off in my mind.

Doak - http://www.doakgolf.com/consulting.asp

C&C - http://www.bencrenshaw.com/MainDesignProjects.htm

can someone explain how these sites are different from Rees?

[Kalen Braley]

Why would you add a couple of tee boxes on a course, and then highlight the course in your awards list?  To me that still smacks of someone desperately shouting out:  "Look at me, look at what I did."  

Or it could be interpreted as "My skills are so good, they acutally let me make modifications to a highly esteemed golf course"

Either way, is this who you want to hand the reigns over to for your next job?  Maybe its just me, and maybe its just because I love Ayn Rand books, but this kind of stuff is a huge turn-off in my mind.

Doak - http://www.doakgolf.com/consulting.asp

C&C - http://www.bencrenshaw.com/MainDesignProjects.htm

can someone explain how these sites are different from Rees?

Mike,

I can explain it for you perfectly well.

These sites are perfect examples of how to do it right.  List the courses you worked on, list what you did and thats that.

I don't see a whole section in there dedicated to awards of every last course they laid a finger on.  Its a simple list of thier work, with at most a simple asterisk noting its a top 100 course as of 2004.  And even then full credit is given to who the original architect is...big difference.

Both of these guys would make great character studies for Ayn Rand if she were still with us.

[Mike Sweeney]

So why did Tom have to add in " * listed as one of America's Top 100 Classic Courses by GOLFWEEK, February 2004." ??

Why does C&C list Bill Coore courses under C&C?

[Kalen Braley]

So why did Tom have to add in " * listed as one of America's Top 100 Classic Courses by GOLFWEEK, February 2004." ??

Why does C&C list Bill Coore courses under C&C?

Mike,

If you go to that link and read the paragraphs preceding that list, you will have your answer.  Its not about glory hounding, or taking work for money.  Its simply being a guardian of the old classics and restoring them as best as possible to the architects original intent.  Hence, IMO, thats why the list was strictly limited to the Classics list, not a full detailed laundry list of every last award the courses have won since the beginning of man.

From the threads I've read on here including Toms comments as well as others who have played the courses he has restored, I would have absolutly no reason to believe otherwise.

Go to the Rees Jones site.  He has only 6 sections across the top, and one of them attributed solely to awards with no original architect credit.  And you're comparing that to an aesterisk on a list somewhere where full attribution is given??

As for C&C I don't know thier specific arrangement, but anything they have done I would imagine the other had some type of input.  If these guys are a team like they appear to be from where I sit, I'm not seeing a problem with this.

[Mike Sweeney]

Both of these guys would make great character studies for Ayn Rand if she were still with us.

Both Tom and Ayn Rand are INTJ's on the Myers Briggs Personality Test. Tom did not know this, but I told him one day, and he reluctantly agreed.

___________________

INTJs present a calm, decisive, and assured face to the world, though they may find it difficult to engage in social conversation. They usually don't directly express their most valued and valuable part: their creative insights. Instead, they translate them into logical decisions, opinions, and plans, which they often express clearly. Because of this, other sometimes experience INTJs as intractable, much to the surprise of the INTJ, who is very willing to change an opinion when new evidence emerges.

_________________________

Now INTJ's make up roughly 5-8 percent of the universe, and trust me, we don't need everyone to be an INTJ, just ask my wife! Certainly neither C&C are and neither is Rees, and I like it that way!

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Those are interesting comments, thanks for sharing.  I did not know you had done the Myers Briggs on Mr. Doak.  His similarities to some of Ayn leading characaters are very striking...perhaps the most amusing is seemingly not wanting to be apart of the ASGCA.  

Anyways...I would agree we can't all be INTJs, and perhaps my rants are all stemming from having just recently finished the Fountainhead...  

[Mike Sweeney]

Go to the Rees Jones site.  He has only 6 sections across the top, and one of them attributed solely to awards with no original architect credit.  And you're comparing that to an aesterisk on a list somewhere where full attribution is given??

Kalen,

You click on the link for the course listed on Rees site and he gives credit to the original architect. For crying out loud, Tom Paul still can't figure out how to clip a quote from a previous post after 10,000 tries, does this make him a bad person?

[Mike Sweeney]

I did not know you had done the Myers Briggs on Mr. Doak.  

Kalen,

Tom (stop the Mr Doak stuff please, Tom is an INTJ and can see through it) only got a Bachelor's degree at Cornell and he drank beer in Scotland for a year of it.

I did not perform a Myers Briggs on Tom, I am an INTJ, get it? No obviously you don't.    

[Kalen Braley]

Go to the Rees Jones site.  He has only 6 sections across the top, and one of them attributed solely to awards with no original architect credit.  And you're comparing that to an aesterisk on a list somewhere where full attribution is given??

Kalen,

You click on the link for the course listed on Rees site and he gives credit to the original architect. For crying out loud, Tom Paul still can't figure out how to clip a quote from a previous post after 10,000 tries, does this make him a bad person?

Hold on Cowboy,

We must be looking at two different sites.

I just clicked on Bethpage Black and got this:

Co-designer: Greg Muirhead
Major restoration in preparation for the 2002 U.S. Open. Work included construction of championship tees, restoration of all fairway and greenside sand bunkers and green surface expansions on select holes. Course has been selected to Host 2009 U.S. Open.
Redesign: 1998

Not one mention of Tillinghast anywhere!!!!!


AND.... I also learned something new, he also lists the awards section twice.  Once in the main section under awards, and again under the Golf Courses section...what is that???

I'd be interested to know which site you are looking at??

[Kalen Braley]

I did not know you had done the Myers Briggs on Mr. Doak.  

Kalen,

Tom (stop the Mr Doak stuff please, Tom is an INTJ and can see through it) only got a Bachelor's degree at Cornell and he drank beer in Scotland for a year of it.

I did not perform a Myers Briggs on Tom, I am an INTJ, get it? No obviously you don't.    

Mike,

I do know what an INTJ is...I just assumed you and him are friendly enough to get him to fill out the assesment for you.  

As for the beer in Scotland, it was probably rehab for him for having to put up with those college professors for 4 years..  

[JR Potts]

I went to "The Open Doctor's" website and was very surprised to see a number of his renovations listed as "award winning courses" with the suggestion that The Country Club, Baltusrol and others are Rees Jones courses.

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/awards/awards_award.php

Does think that he should have taken the time to note that these are renovations? Shouldn't he also mention the orig. designer?

The current presentation of this info at best is erroneous and at worst could be perceived as deceptive.

Wow!  I just read this thread and clicked on Rees' site and must say that many on here are unbelieveably harsh on Rees Jones for the benign statements that are on his site.  What on that site is not true?  Given the content and the exact description of the work that was done, how can anyone be confused as to what was done?

To you unreasonably harsh critics of his site, you are letting your anti-Reese biases cloud your common sense in my opinion.   You need to take a step back, reread what was written, and give the guy a break.  God knows, whether you love his work or not, he's earned it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Not one mention of Tillinghast anywhere!!!!!

Probably because it is a Joe Burbeck course:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_53/ai_86204907

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