[Mike Sweeney]

Seeing Tom Doak's Pacific Dunes located above National on the Golf list made me think of the newcomers on Long Island. If the top 2 spots still go to Shinnecock and National, the candidates are:

1. Piping Rock - Often overlooked due to location, great mix of holes.

2. Garden City - Tough to beat the history and legacy.

3. Friars Head - New kid on the block that keeps getting better.

4. Sebonnack - Newest kid on the block, which I have not played but know the property and love the pics that I have seen.

5. Maidstone - despite Matt's protest of mundane holes, it is still a great place. The only golf course north of South Carolina and south of Newport located directly on the Atlantic Ocean?

6. Bethpage Black - For the better player, this could be ranked #2 on some list.

[Glenn Spencer]

Only played Garden City and Bethpage. I would take Garden City in that one. My grandfather has played all of those except Sebonack and Maidstone was second for him behind The National, so I imagine it would be pretty damn good.

[Tom_Doak]

If you had a hundred people go and play all six of them, I see the votes as follows:

Piping Rock and Maidstone - less than 5 votes each.
Sebonack - not many more than that.
Garden City - maybe a few more because of the history.
Friars Head - 25-35 votes.
Bethpage Black - 35-45 votes.

All of them would get some support for third place.  A few of them would get some votes for second place ... some people think National is too easy, and those types would go for Bethpage or Sebonack instead.

[Jeff Evagues]

Here's one vote for Sebonack. I also don't consider B Black near the others on that list.

[Frank Pasquale]

I've never played it, but does Atlantic belong in this conversation?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

For an overall experience with golf as the primary consideration but also including ambiance and club culture, it is hard to beat Maidstone.  I've only been around parts of Piping Rock, but at least I had Tom Paul as my guide.  It looked excellent and worthy of inclusion.  It is too early to tell about Sebonack, so I'll leave that out of my discussion.  Friars Head would be a notch below Maidstone although I like the golf course a bit more because of the consistency of its outstanding holes.  I don't know Garden City at all (just took some peeks from public roads) so I cannot say.  It clearly lacks topography, but I've seen great designs on flat ground so I am not prejudging that one.  As for Bethpage Black, even though it was designed by a Philadelphian, I cannot include it on this list.  It is missing character and has little to no charm.  It was built to be hard but that is not a demanding test for an architect.  Any architect can design a difficult golf course.  Designing a great one that is playable for a wider range of players, enjoyable difficulty if you will, is much harder and Tillinghast did not do this.  Plus, the greens are average at best, even taking into account significant expansion.

What about Creek Club?  While the golf course is not a supreme test for top-tier (neither is Maidstone or NGLA and maybe Garden City), it has some wonderful holes, the single best view on the island and a great club ethos.  It does have George Holland, but manages to overcome that  

[Mike Sweeney]

What about Creek Club?  While the golf course is not a supreme test for top-tier (neither is Maidstone or NGLA and maybe Garden City), it has some wonderful holes, the single best view on the island and a great club ethos.  It does have George Holland, but manages to overcome that  

It is a special place for me, but as a place I can't put it above Maidstone and as a course I can't put it above its sister Piping Rock no matter what Tom Paul say about his NY home course.

Atlantic and Engineers would be next on the list for me of possibles and there could be arguments that Atlantic is the 3rd best in Connecticut or New Jersey, but not on The Island.

[John Sabino]

Mike - have played all but Friars Head (will play this Fall). I would rank Bethpage Black as the third best followed by Sebonack, Garden City, Maidstone and Piping Rock.

Garden City has great history and ambiance. As far as the most guilt-free day, Maidstone would win since the wife and kids can spend a day at the beach while you're playing.

And don't forget that Fishers Island is technically part of Long Island, which no doubt has the best collection of golf courses than any other part of the world given it's size.

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, You'd better be careful. Writing prose of that nature will get you nothing but fame and fortune. You might even open up a few closed skulls.
Very Well Said!

Sween=
How do you define best?

[mark chalfant]

Mike:

Garden City or Shinnecock

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Garden City.

Bethpage Black isn't supposed to be charming--it's supposed to be hard.  Deal with it.  For that reason, that it's drastically different than the first two, deserves consideration, but I think it's unidimensional in its challenge.  There is nothing wrong with this.  It's a certain type of course, and it's not meant for everyone.  

Friar's Head is quite a drive from NYC (as is Tallgrass).  

I am in favor of Garden City for several reasons; One, the history of US Opens and US Amateurs, plus its place in golf in the early part of the 20th century.  Two, it's ideal in the sense of a golf club; show up and play.  Walk.  No electronics.  Good caddies.  Take 3 1/2 hours max for foursomes (I have done 18 in less than 2 hrs. as a single).  Three, it's fun to play.  The course offers plenty in terms of strategy and ways to get around it; the player is not forced into one particular way of playing a hole; aerial approaches or ground approaches are available on most of the holes. Wind is an ever present factor, changes constantly, and alters the play of the holes considerably.  

Garden City is also a very reasonable drive from Manhattan (~20 miles) depending on time of day.  


 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

As for Bethpage Black, even though it was designed by a Philadelphian, I cannot include it on this list.  It is missing character and has little to no charm.  It was built to be hard but that is not a demanding test for an architect.  Any architect can design a difficult golf course.  Designing a great one that is playable for a wider range of players, enjoyable difficulty if you will, is much harder and Tillinghast did not do this.

Wayne,

  BB isn't supposed to be "playable for a wide range of players".  There is a sign above the first tee.  It's abundantly clear.  If you want a more playable course at the complex while maintaining some difficulty, I would point you left towards Bethpage Red; it's 6900 yards (est.) and fun when your game is there and hitting; it's fun when your game isn't.  

What about Creek Club?  While the golf course is not a supreme test for top-tier (neither is Maidstone or NGLA and maybe Garden City), it has some wonderful holes, the single best view on the island and a great club ethos.  It does have George Holland, but manages to overcome that  

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

I know all that.  I don't care what the sign says or how abundantly clear the notion is.  Frankly, the clearer the notion, the less I like such a course.  Pine Valley was designed to be a course for the best players yet it has an abundance of qualities that cannot be found at Bethpage Black.  It has variety of hole lengths, shot demands, topography, green slopes and contours, bunkering, etc. that provides a unique character and feel that is welcoming.  Pine Valley has wide LZs and can be played by a wider range of players than Bethpage's Black course.  Bethpage Black is one dimensional and not very interesting.  It lacks something.  I think it is both character and charm.

A golf course that is challenging for the best players can still have charm, nuance, deception, long and short holes and a variety of shot demands.  It is a better design if it possesses such qualities.  The one dimensional design of Bethpage Black and the overdose of big bunkers with the goofy and repetitive capes and bays that spoils the view and playability of the engaging topography.  This a failure in my mind and would therefore not qualify for my "best" consideration.  Best is completely subjective and by my criteria it fails utterly.  The fact that a sign says it is not for everyone does not give it a free pass in a subjective or objective analysis.

[George Pazin]

Somehow you guys managed to overlook Matt's fav, The Bridge.

 

Did Maidstone end up going ahead with the irrigation plans? If so, how's it working out?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug,

I know all that.  I don't care what the sign says or how abundantly clear the notion is.  Frankly, the clearer the notion, the less I like such a course.  Pine Valley was designed to be a course for the best players yet it has an abundance of qualities that cannot be found at Bethpage Black.  It has variety of hole lengths, shot demands, topography, green slopes and contours, bunkering, etc. that provides a unique character and feel that is welcoming.  Pine Valley has wide LZs and can be played by a wider range of players than Bethpage's Black course.  Bethpage Black is one dimensional and not very interesting.  It lacks something.  I think it is both character and charm.

Wayne,
  Comparing BB to PV isn't exactly an equal comparison.

A golf course that is challenging for the best players can still have charm, nuance, deception, long and short holes and a variety of shot demands.

I agree with you on this matter.

It is a better design if it possesses such qualities.

This is your opinion.  This isn't fact.  

The one dimensional design of Bethpage Black and the overdose of big bunkers with the goofy and repetitive capes and bays that spoils the view and playability of the engaging topography.

Well, Wayne, you probably know that BB's maintenance was not up to snuff for many years.  You also probably know that a Golf Course Architect was retained by the state to "Restore" it prior to 2002. I'm not certain how close or far the restoration came to the original design.  

This a failure in my mind and would therefore not qualify for my "best" consideration.  Best is completely subjective and by my criteria it fails utterly.  

I think there are some other issues to consider here.  

The fact that a sign says it is not for everyone does not give it a free pass in a subjective or objective analysis.

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

I agree whole-heartedly that comparing Pine Valley and Bethpage's Black course is not a fair general comparison.  Not by a looooong shot.  The only commonality I was referring to is that they were both designed for the better players.  Bethpage's Black course did it in an uninteresting fashion.

You agree with me that a golf course can provide a challenge for the best players and have charm, nuance, etc.  Other than the challenge, I find these lacking at Bethpage's Black course.  Does the omission of these factors make a course a better design?  I don't see how and in fact argue the opposite.  It may be my opinion, but it would be difficult to successfully argue the opposite side.

Bethpage's past maintenance practices do not weigh in on a current analysis of third best courses on Long Island.  Likewise the fact that it was restored/remodeled prior to 2002.  It is what it is and that's how I am basing my opinion.  How a consulting architect could study that golf course and not recommend expanding those greens is beyond me.  Maybe he did.  If so, I think it he did a rather poor job of selling the concept, especially given the influx of money from the Open would allow this to be accomplished.  Never the less, the course as it is presented today primarily due to the architectural underpinning is not very good, to me that is.

What other issues would you consider?

[Jason Blasberg]

Mike:

Of those I've played:

3) Friar's Head
4)Engineers
tied 5th) Garden City and Bethpage Black (if BB was set up properly it would likely be 4th and Engineers and GCGC would be tied 5th).

[Dennis_Harwood]

If your question was which club would I most enjoy playing, day in and day out, and combine elements of fun and challenge, I would take a membership at Maidstone (with Cyress my west coast choice)--

If you look for the ultimate challenge Shinnecock would rate higher, but after experiencing a score of Shinnecock 8, Dennis 0 I am in a much better mood after a day at Maidstone.  

I have had some days of sucess on some of the others you mentioned, but Maidstone is still my #1 east coast course if choice to join.

[Michael Dugger]

If ya ain't played 'em all you aren't qualified to comment!

Remember that, people.

[Guy Corcoran, Jr]

3.Bethpage, 3a. Garden City Golf Club, 5.Maidstone, 6.Piping Rock, 7. The Creek

[Gerry B]

Fishers Island edges out Maidstone for the bronze  -  FI is technically on Long Island.

My LI top list of the ones I have played are:

Shinnecock
NGLA
Fishers Island
Maidstone
Friars Head
Creek Club
Bethpage Black
Piping Rock

[Mike Sweeney]

If ya ain't played 'em all you aren't qualified to comment!

Remember that, people.

Michael,

I bailed you out on the other thread from Doakey and his Cornell degree and this is what I get!

The only Presidential candidate that I ever met was when I was naked in the locker room of Long Island National, and yet I have an opinion of who I will vote for. It was not Hillary by the way.

This is not a rating panel, it is a discussion group.

I have not seen it and I have never met Tom Doak, but I am real comfortable in saying that he would not have designed that Par 3 over a fake pond at Sebonack if not for other forces.

It is a Discussion Group, discuss!

[Mike Sweeney]

Fishers Island edges out Maidstone for the bronze  -  FI is technically on Long Island.

Having spent 6 summers on a fishing boat as a kid, I want to be clear, Fishers Island is not part of Long Island!!

It is part of Suffolk County Government, but The Queen is technically the Head of State of Canada and Bermuda too!

Fishers is its own island on this thread!

[Michael Dugger]

Mike,

I was just clownin', that's is young person speak for teasing!

I always love the hypocricy.  What is not okay on one thread goes completely out the window on another.

So I vote The Bridge.....followed closely by The Atlantic

[Gerry B]

if it FI is part of Suffolk then it should qualify IMHO. and the queen's pic is still on our money in Canada - therefore.....

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