[Garland Bayley]

Here is an idea. Public courses have marshals. Marshals can observe foursomes that are waiting, and foursome that are causing people to wait. Have the marshals hand out discount coupons to foursomes that are waiting each time they see them. Raise the green fees so that those not earning the coupons are paying more.

[Donnie Beck]

Who's going to pay for the marshall's to sit there all day?

[Garland Bayley]

Who's going to pay for the marshall's to sit there all day?

I guess I don't understand the question. Many courses already have marshals. Therefore, there is no added expense. The marshals don't "sit there" all day. They cycle through the course backwards telling slow groups to speed up. By the second or third time they see a group, they probably know what kind of pace they keep.

[John Kavanaugh]

Charge by the stroke and the slow players would go away.

[Donnie Beck]

It's an idea.. but you can only play as fast as the group in front of you.. Most muni's I have played are not slow because of one or two groups holding everyone up, but rather the pro shop sending groups out every 7 mins off the 1st tee..

[Garland Bayley]

Charge by the stroke and the slow players would go away.

That of course is total BS. I can play 18 on an empty course with a fellow 20+ handicapper and finish in under 2 hours. How fast can you and one of your low handicap buddies play 18?

EDIT: BTW that is walking and carrying.

[Garland Bayley]

Charge by the stroke and the slow players would go away.

The LPGA tour plays 5 1/2 and sometimes 6 hour rounds. Them par shooters are sure fast. Since they play shorter tees, your logic would indicate that moving back to the tips would have us playing faster since they play a shorter course slower.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't understand the math or the physics of the "every 7 minutes"  complaint. A foursome can play a round of golf in 3 and a half hours on most course with little strain. The first group off the tee in the morning could average nearly 12 minutes per hole and still finish in around 3.5 hours.

So the first group tees off, hits their approach shots in about seven minutes, then the next group tees off. If the first group plays at a reasonable pace -- 12 minutes per hole -- there's no backup.

Allowing for lost balls, par threes and reachable par 5s, there will be holes where groups bunch up for a while, but as soon as these temporary bottlenecks are passed, the lead group speeds up again, the group behind them catches up, and we're back on a 3.5 hour pace.

No one has been able to explain to me why this pace can't be maintained. Blaming it on the tee sheet simply excuses the groups already on the course who aren't playing fast enough.

[Garland Bayley]

Shivas,

I see your suggestion as maintaining the status quo, i.e., a constant throughput for the course. I see my suggestion as providing an incentive to increase the throughput for the course. Hopefully slow players will realize they are in effect renting the course by the hour and will either go rent somewhere else or improve the efficiency of their rental.

[John Kavanaugh]

Charge by the stroke and the slow players would go away.

That of course is total BS. I can play 18 on an empty course with a fellow 20+ handicapper and finish in under 2 hours. How fast can you and one of your low handicap buddies play 18?

EDIT: BTW that is walking and carrying.

Just cause you play like a dog does not mean you have to time yourself in dog years.  Please name a course where you think you and Paul Thomas or any other legit 20 handicapper can play 18 holes in under two hours and each still break a hundred and I will pay you triple the greenfees.  If you can't you only pay your own way.

Just for giggles let's keep it to a minimum of 6400 YDS.  I see a Dixie Cup Callenge in this.

[Brian_Ewen]

I think speed of play can only be improved by education , so lets start with the original culprits .

The Pro. Tours .

[Kalen Braley]

I don't understand the math or the physics of the "every 7 minutes"  complaint. A foursome can play a round of golf in 3 and a half hours on most course with little strain. The first group off the tee in the morning could average nearly 12 minutes per hole and still finish in around 3.5 hours.

So the first group tees off, hits their approach shots in about seven minutes, then the next group tees off. If the first group plays at a reasonable pace -- 12 minutes per hole -- there's no backup.

Allowing for lost balls, par threes and reachable par 5s, there will be holes where groups bunch up for a while, but as soon as these temporary bottlenecks are passed, the lead group speeds up again, the group behind them catches up, and we're back on a 3.5 hour pace.

No one has been able to explain to me why this pace can't be maintained. Blaming it on the tee sheet simply excuses the groups already on the course who aren't playing fast enough.

Rick,

I agree with you 100% on this one.  It is maintainable and doable.  From what I"ve observed, its really due to a lack of enforcement from the Marshall in the form of either not being consistent in telling them to keep up or just not being there at all.

We've even gone so far as to call the clubhouse from the course and ask for a marshall to be sent out.  But often no one comes.  I understand this puts the course operators in a difficult spot because they don't want to piss off thier clientle.  But when the Marshall is constantly present, and gently reminding slow groups to keep up, it can be very helpful.

[Matt_Ward]

I don't mind waiting at the clubhouse but once I step foot on the 1st tee I want to play in no more than four hours.

If courses can't accomodate that -- I'd rather hit balls at the range of do something else. That's my golf is suffering -- slow play is nothing more than a talking point for 99% of the facilities out there.

Sitting behind some turkey with his hybrid out thinking he can reach the green at 200+ yards is laughable if I wasn't often stuck behind such a repetitive event.

John K:

Love the idea you suggested !

[Rick Shefchik]

Matt,

The turkey with the hybrid isn't doing much to slow up your overall pace of play even if he doesn't or can't hit the green -- as long as his group catches up to the group ahead of them again on the next hole.

It really couldn't be simpler -- if there's a gap between your group and the group ahead of you, you're playing too slow.

[Garland Bayley]

Charge by the stroke and the slow players would go away.

That of course is total BS. I can play 18 on an empty course with a fellow 20+ handicapper and finish in under 2 hours. How fast can you and one of your low handicap buddies play 18?

EDIT: BTW that is walking and carrying.

Just cause you play like a dog does not mean you have to time yourself in dog years.  Please name a course where you think you and Paul Thomas or any other legit 20 handicapper can play 18 holes in under two hours and each still break a hundred and I will pay you triple the greenfees.  If you can't you only pay your own way.

Just for giggles let's keep it to a minimum of 6400 YDS.  I see a Dixie Cup Callenge in this.

Nice deflection John. Have you and a low handicap buddy ever played 18 in under 2 hours?

[John Kavanaugh]

Sometimes when playing birdie ball in a cart a frien and I might play 18 in under two hours.  Birdie ball is where you pick up if you are going to make more than birdie and you get payed only for each birdie made.  

I do not think 2 hour 18 hole rounds are a good thing.  It is bad for future design and the enjoyment of the game.

[Garland Bayley]

Here's what I think:

I just pulled up the tee sheet for my local muni online.  They have 28 tee times over a 4 hour (240 minute) period.  That's 8.57 minute intervals.

But I'll bet anything that after about 11 am, at peak times, there are way more than 28 groups on the course.  I'll bet it's more like 35 or more once you get into the afternoon.  And when there's that many groups on the course, you can't identify the slowpokes, because they appear to be "on pace", when in fact they aren't.  

So all that means is that the people playing earlier in the day will get their incentives to play faster perhaps weeks before those playing later in the day. If it does as I suspect and speeds play, eventually those starting after 11 am will start to see the spread between slow and fast.

[George Pazin]

Garland and I could quite easily get around my home course in under 2 hours and shoot under 100 IF there was no one in front of us (which only happens on Sundays in the fall in the Burgh ). Of course, he'd only net about $55, so it really wouldn't be worth the trip.

There's all ranges of handicappers, and all ranges of players speed-wise, and I see little correlation between the two.

Rick's right, just have the early guys set a good pace, and keep up - it's that simple.

The Garden State Parkway doesn't have much problem maintaining speeds around 80 mph, with cars just off each others' bumpers.

[Doug Sobieski]

Why does everybody focus on the in-box - i.e., the 1st tee?  Why not focus on the out-box, i.e., the 18th green?

Shiv:

Yes, I've done that. Years ago, I spent much of a Saturday recording the intervals between when groups placed the flag in the hole on the 18th green. If your 1st tee intervals are 8 minutes, and it takes on average 9 minutes for a group to hole out once the previous group clears on 18, you've got a problem.

As you may recall, the course where I was doing this had a BRUTAL 18th, so it made for an interesting day

Sobe

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland and I could quite easily get around my home course in under 2 hours and shoot under 100 IF there was no one in front of us (which only happens on Sundays in the fall in the Burgh ). Of course, he'd only net about $55, so it really wouldn't be worth the trip.

There's all ranges of handicappers, and all ranges of players speed-wise, and I see little correlation between the two.

Rick's right, just have the early guys set a good pace, and keep up - it's that simple.

The Garden State Parkway doesn't have much problem maintaining speeds around 80 mph, with cars just off each others' bumpers.

Set it up at 6400 yds and I will fly out to see you guys make fools out of yourselves.  I thought you were injured.

[Garland Bayley]

Sometimes when playing birdie ball in a cart a frien and I might play 18 in under two hours.  Birdie ball is where you pick up if you are going to make more than birdie and you get payed only for each birdie made.  

I do not think 2 hour 18 hole rounds are a good thing.  It is bad for future design and the enjoyment of the game.

I am not advocating that people play in under 2 hours. I am simply saying that if a person can do that, that person is not going to be the problem slowing things down on the muni. I am also saying it has little to do with playing ability as all walkers have to walk the length of each hole, at least last time I checked they did.

It has no detriment to golf course design that I can see.. IMO wider fairways are an improvement to golf course design, and they facilitate a faster pace of play. IMO fewer ponds are an improvement to golf course design, and I believe that facilitates a faster pace of play.

When do 2 hours rounds lead to more enjoyment of the game? When they are done by those people that want to play first and fast first thing in the morning. Myself, I prefer playing late in the day. I have a friend who's foursome plays first thing every Saturday morning and they play in 2 hours 15 minutes and love it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If you want to have an influence on the pace of play then man up and let the management know that you, and as many other guys as you can find who hate slow play, won't be coming back to their course until they get their hours per round down to a reasonable number.

I've never seen an empty course play slow.  

[Matt_Ward]

Attention ... attention ... attention --

The issue behind slow play is not what the players do but what MANAGEMENT ALLOWS to happen.

I've said this upteeeeeeen times -- management runs the facility -- or it should. When the inmates run the aslyum all hell breaks loose.

Management at many places doesn't want to upset any players -- they figure that getting involved in slow play is a no win proposition.  

Usually such management isn't as slow in grabbing one's Master Card / Visa when paying for the fees.

If management doesn't get involved on a continous basis (e.g. training of staff, applying rewards / penalities, etc, etc) all this talk about players policing themselves is simply a silly diversion from the core reasons why such matters continue to harm the game.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John K,

If a player is charged by the stroke, how do you measure, including the gimme putts, uncounted penalty strokes (or more likely stroke and distance) etc.?

I like the idea of positive reinforcement, like Marshalls handing out coupons if they see someone doing something, like playing out of order to speed play.  It could be abused, of course.

Maybe you give a coupon out when they return the cart. If under X hours, they get a few bucks off.  Your next green fee is determined by how fast you play.  Same problem though, as everyone will blame the guy in front of them.

BTW, Yates studies do pretty much prove that 7 minute tee times put no more players on the course than 10 minute times. I recall Kemper Lakes started out with either 10 or 12 minute tee times, and it was no sweat to wait a few minutes on the tee for the starter to let you play away.

[Doug Sobieski]

Can anyone pull up the old threads about "Fast Play Tuesday" that Pete Galea came up with? It was eventually written up in PGA Magazine.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()