The Oakmontation of American Golf..

« **on:** August 07, 2007, 11:29:25 AM »

needs to stop. Tree removal for improved grass growage is one thing but the opening of playing lines will eventually destroy shotmaking as we know it. I can't see bunkers being the only defense against people who can not either work the ball right, left, high or low. All I say is think before you chop.

« **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:38:41 AM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on August 07, 2007, 11:31:38 AM

I'll ask you the same question I'd ask Dr. M if he were alive today:

If you were a tree, would you chop yourself down?

A better question would be...If you were a tree and saw one of your seedlings take root between a bunker and a green would you abort its growth? Seems like a double penalty child is always fair game.

« **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:39:08 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 11:29:25 AM

but the opening of playing lines will eventually destroy shotmaking as we know it.

John, you've got to be kidding. The opening of playing lines ENHANCES shotmaking. Pick your line and execute. By your way of thinking, TOC does not require shotmaking. Instead of the shots being defined for you, you must decide, based on your game, what the "line of charm" is.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:40:43 AM »

If you were a tree, would you hang out in a neighborhood where you weren't wanted?

« **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:44:54 AM »

David,

You must be one of those guys who thinks imagination trumps skill.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:47:14 AM »

Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on August 07, 2007, 11:40:43 AM

If you were a tree, would you hang out in a neighborhood where you weren't wanted?

If I was a tree on a golf course I would be a Willow. No need to explain.

« **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:49:43 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 11:44:54 AM

David,

You must be one of those guys who thinks imagination trumps skill.

And you must be one of those guys who thinks a driving range is the ultimate in golf.

« **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:50:54 AM »

JK,
Not if you were in New England.

« **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:51:51 AM »

I'm with John on this.

And I agree he would probably be a willow. I hate willows.

I agree there are several courses that have planted way too many trees that are choking holes, but not every tree need be cut down. If a tree or nest of trees has a strategic purpose then it should stay. You still have the option of playing the route that is not impacted by the trees. Eliminating the trees just takes away a possible penalty for picking the wrong route and takes away the opportunity for a skillful shot struck to navigate around them.

I just thought of a recovery shot I had to hit at Coyote Crossing yesterday. Trees blocked the shot from the right after I mishit my drive. The only option was to hit short of them and let a slight hill run the ball down to the green and through the trees. If the trees weren't there then no penalty would exist for a bad shot. But instead I was able to hit a wonderful recovery and then hit a fifteen foot putt for birdie that lipped out and I was left with a excellent par save.

Not every hole needs to be the tenth at Riviera.

« **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2007, 11:55:33 AM »

Quote from: George Pazin on August 07, 2007, 11:49:43 AM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 11:44:54 AM
David,

You must be one of those guys who thinks imagination trumps skill.

And you must be one of those guys who thinks a driving range is the ultimate in golf.

George,

I don't see many trees on driving ranges.

« **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:02:44 PM »

JK,
Chopping down trees isn't cheap, don't fret JK.

« **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:04:22 PM »

I love trees. But some courses just don't need them...and certainly shouldn't have that many of them.

I never understood 50% of course tree planting. For instance, if you have a nice creek or lake, why line the damn thing with Willows...or trees of any kind?

« **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:07:06 PM »

I have been to Scotland twice and played many wonderful links courses often mentioned on this site. i'm sure that i would be happy playing only these style course exclusively if i had to. However, on both trips we changed gears and one time played Ladybank and on the other, Balbirnie and i truly was refreshed by the change in scenery, strategy, and style. I think that it's great to love redheads more than brunettes, but still feel that a blond every once in a while might make one appreaciate the redhead more! Heck, throw in a bald head every so often.

« **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:14:20 PM »

Ryan,

Just based on what I see along irrigation ditches on farmland I believe that trees find their way onto creeks and such naturally. I think they like to grow near water and where land is neither farmed or cut on a regular basis.

« **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:16:35 PM »

John,

Why stop at just the trees.

Shouldn't we bring back cops as well to keep people straight off the tee box?

Shouldn't we also bring back the bunkers that run perpindicular to the line of the fairway like trenches so people can't get 50-60 yards of run on the end of thier drive?

And the injustice of these greens that you can run your ball onto. Every green should be a teeny island in a sea of wicked and nasty deep bunkers...

« **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:17:41 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 12:14:20 PM

Ryan,

Just based on what I see along irrigation ditches on farmland I believe that trees find their way onto creeks and such naturally. I think they like to grow near water and where land is neither farmed or cut on a regular basis.

Then I propose, immediately upon reaching seedling, it should be exterminated and sterilized. The fact that these trees exist is more of a maintenance issue rather than a architecture or design issue...don't you think?

A great man once said:

"I love the smell of sawdust in the morning."

« **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:18:38 PM »

Quote from: Kalen Braley on August 07, 2007, 12:16:35 PM

And the injustice of these greens that you can run your ball onto. Every green should be a teeny island in a sea of wicked and nasty deep bunkers...

Don't forget, every green should be like a pool table, tilted at a 1% grade toward the middle of the fairway only.

« **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:27:04 PM »

Quote from: Ryan Potts on August 07, 2007, 12:17:41 PM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 12:14:20 PM
Ryan,

Just based on what I see along irrigation ditches on farmland I believe that trees find their way onto creeks and such naturally. I think they like to grow near water and where land is neither farmed or cut on a regular basis.

Then I propose, immediately upon reaching seedling, it should be exterminated and sterilized. The fact that these trees exist is more of a maintenance issue rather than a architecture or design issue...don't you think?

A great man once said:

"I love the smell of sawdust in the morning."

Ryan,

We have an interesting situation down here in farmville. There are a series of irrigation ditches out on the prarie that became overgrown over a twenty year period just from natural tree growth. At great expense the local farmers got together and cut down all the trees and widened the ditches. It greatly improved water flow to their land. The downside is that a recreational lake nearby that benefited from the daming of the ditches in now dry for recreational purposes. Tough luck for the boat owners. I am sure the trees and willows along the creek that runs through Butler are mostly natural and not planted by some committee and I agree that trees need to be killed better sooner than later in their life.

« **Reply #18 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:29:33 PM »

Most of the tree removal projects I'm familiar with are more an issue of either removing trees that shouldn't have been planted in the first place or to address inadequate maintenance. As a course ages, if trees aren't trimmed properly they can change the way holes must be played. I think tree removal can be appropriate in cases like this.

« **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:31:55 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on August 07, 2007, 12:18:38 PM

Quote from: Kalen Braley on August 07, 2007, 12:16:35 PM
And the injustice of these greens that you can run your ball onto. Every green should be a teeny island in a sea of wicked and nasty deep bunkers...

Don't forget, every green should be like a pool table, tilted at a 1% grade toward the middle of the fairway only.

Herein lies the problem with giving the ignorant masses a platform. Oakmont has the greens and bunkers to survive quite well without trees. Every course is not Oakmont and every tree is not in the way of a well executed shot.

« **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:33:22 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 12:27:04 PM

..and I agree that trees need to be killed better sooner than later in their life.

John, I promised that I would not talk politics on this site.

« **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2007, 01:10:27 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 12:31:55 PM

Quote from: George Pazin on August 07, 2007, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: Kalen Braley on August 07, 2007, 12:16:35 PM
And the injustice of these greens that you can run your ball onto. Every green should be a teeny island in a sea of wicked and nasty deep bunkers...

Don't forget, every green should be like a pool table, tilted at a 1% grade toward the middle of the fairway only.

Herein lies the problem with giving the ignorant masses a platform. Oakmont has the greens and bunkers to survive quite well without trees. Every course is not Oakmont and every tree is not in the way of a well executed shot.

JK,

After having seen probably far too many of your posts, I know when you've got nothing to come back with when you resort to personal insults in your posts. If thats what you need to feel better about yourself, then more power to you.

However if you want to talk about ignorance, the tree removal party didn't start with Oakmont, and it certainly won't end there either.

« **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2007, 01:17:07 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on August 07, 2007, 12:31:55 PM

Quote from: George Pazin on August 07, 2007, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: Kalen Braley on August 07, 2007, 12:16:35 PM
And the injustice of these greens that you can run your ball onto. Every green should be a teeny island in a sea of wicked and nasty deep bunkers...

Don't forget, every green should be like a pool table, tilted at a 1% grade toward the middle of the fairway only.

Herein lies the problem with giving the ignorant masses a platform. Oakmont has the greens and bunkers to survive quite well without trees. Every course is not Oakmont and every tree is not in the way of a well executed shot.

So the solution to every course not being Oakmont is to make every course a tree-lined shot-dictating paradise.

Yep, John, I'm the ignorant one.

« **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2007, 01:31:23 PM »

Barney; Another red herring. Where is the data showing a massive shift toward clear cutting trees on courses across the nation? Some selective clearing on a few courses is happening. But there is no evidence of a trend toward turning parkland courses into faux links. Oakmont had the pedigree and the history to do it. But try to remove even a few trees at most clubs and wait for the uproar. Ask some of us here who have had to manage the process as members, like Jeff Goldman or me and see whether memberships are lining up with chainsawa in hand. Better still, ask the architects who are called in to renovate courses.

« **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2007, 01:38:43 PM »

Hey John, do you ever suffer from repetitive motion injury in your button-pushing finger?

Tom

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