Rank 'em best by State

« **on:** July 18, 2007, 09:47:26 AM »

What are the top five States for best GCA (public and private) and forget golf associations, MGA vs. GAP, just keep it to States:

here's my stab:

1) NY
2) CA
3) PA
4) NJ
5) MI

Honorable mention:

Oregon

« **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2007, 09:50:48 AM »

1. NY
2. CA
3. PA
4. OH
5. IL

« **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:21:23 AM »

Per capita it has to be Nebraska.

« **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:36:04 AM »

NY, Pa, NJ, Ca, NC

Of course by number of rounds available to play, then
CA, AR, Fl, Tx, NC,

« **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:37:48 AM »

How can we possibly know until Matt Ward tells us?

« **Reply #5 on:** July 18, 2007, 10:38:09 AM »

Quote from: Jim Franklin on July 18, 2007, 09:50:48 AM

1. NY
2. CA
3. PA
4. OH
5. IL

sounds about right to me.

« **Reply #6 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:00:09 PM »

NY
NJ
PA

all before CA and maybe MI, ?CO ?MA too.

Big gap from first tier in CA.

CO front range for public still way underappreciated.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:04:08 PM »

W.V.

How would you justify NJ over PA? I haven't played enough to disagree, just wunderin'...

« **Reply #8 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:14:56 PM »

I can see NY, NJ, PA being high. But shouldn't MA beat out IL? CA gets in there because of sheer volume and OH deserves a look. For modern-only SC is probably as high as any.

My run:

NY
PA
MA
CA
NJ
OH
SC

« **Reply #9 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:15:48 PM »

Sully,

I would take Massachusetts over PA or NJ for diversity:

Mountains:

Taconic, The Orchards

City:

Brookline, Charles River, Brae Burn, Boston Golf Club

Country,

Myopia Hunt, Essex County, Old Sandwich, Salem

Ocean,

Kittansett, The Ho!, Nantcuket, Sankaty.

Lots of public options on and near The Cape plus Redtail by Silva, some great 9 holers.........

« **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:25:58 PM »

Sully

NJ has come a long way on the public side while PA is dragging its feet. I'll be honest it's very close and I am trying to avoid looking like a HOMER!

CA public, given the size of the place and the population really hurts it.

MA is pretty good for a little place, isn't it? So's RI and DE but they are so tiny. Both together make up a fair-sized TX ranch! LOL

« **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:27:17 PM »

Mike,

I think PA acquits itself very well in every category you site, save one. Though I agree that diversity is important, PA offers quite a bit...just behind NY. Without Long Island, it isn't a contest. I hereby propose that Long Island secedes from NY and becomes North Pennsylvania. I'll call Eddie Rendell and see what he can do

Mountains:

Eagles Mere and CC Scranton

City:

Merion, Oakmont, Rolling Green, Huntingdon Valley, Philadelphia Country, Manufacturers, Fox Chapel, Pittsburgh Field Club, Aronimink, Gulph Mills, LuLu, Philadelphia Cricket, etc.

Country:

Lancaster, Stonewall, Lehigh, Sunnehanna, Rolling Rock, Bedford Springs and French Creek

Ocean:

Well, that's a tough one

« **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:38:17 PM »

The fact that people can't agree which are the best 5 states for golf, why not do all 50 states? I thought about introducing this topic a few weeks ago, but alas here's the opportunity.

Since it seems there are people from all over the world on this site that have played lots of golf in the USA, why not do a ranking of the top 5-10 or even 20 for places like CA and NY (and others that have a multitude of great courses). I'm sure there will be states where there has not been much play (has anyone talked about golf in Iowa?) so those will be quick discussions.

I propose that we start alphabetically and people initially submit a list of their top courses (public and private), but not ranked. There would be too much arguing about one course being better than another(save that for later). After a certain amount of time when we have sufficient courses, we can rank them. Since it's very subjective for ranking courses, i.e. a good course that's a great deal may place higher than a better course with a high green fee. We could do the ranking by value, but I think we should go with money is no object, just what are the best courses in that state. We could also list a few gems for each state, which would be the great values.

Any suggestions for improvement? Too arduous a task? I think it would be really interesting to have a state list done by people who appreciate architecture enough to spend their lives on a site like GCA.

« **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:46:04 PM »

JKBlasberg:

Just realize this -- as strong as New York and Pennsy are on the private side -- they are extremely weak (save for Bethpage Black from The Empire State) on the public scene.

California is much more complete on both fronts and would take the overall #1 position IMHO.

If one were only considering private courses then New York would rate the edge with Pennsy nipping at the heels of #2 California.

I also see NJ being ahead of MA but two states few consider is Ohio and North Carolina. Both the Buckeye and Tar Heel states are very diversified in terms of what they provide. Ditto Michigan for what it provides.

States to watch for in the years ahead -- Texas and Colorado. You can also add Oregon in as well for honorable mention.

No doubt Northeast states have the edge on the private side but the other states I mentioned have the room to expand and the dollars from investors to make the diversity of courses a reality.

« **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:01:09 PM »

Ohio
Massachusetts
New York
Pennsylvania
Michigan

« **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:05:32 PM »

Mark, pass me what you are smoking

« **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:19:26 PM »

I thought we were just going on overall golf and architecture. If there are 20 public courses in California better than any public in PA it doesn't mean much to me if 40 of the top 50 privates are in PA.

I am not saying that is the breakdown by any means, but I am saying Mike Sweeney's method of breaking down into categories by style seems better for this conversation than the typical public and private segregation.

Now, If you were to take all the courses in PA and CA, how would the top 50 break out by state? Just a guess, but PA would have to gt the edge...right?

« **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:45:30 PM »

Wayne, I will pass it real soon, like when you, Sweeney and I meet up in Dayton for 9 holes !

« **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:46:26 PM »

If the discussion is based on a 50/50 split between private and public and since IMHO, both NY and PA, are woefully deficient on the public side and trail CA by a considerable margin. That margin is continuing to grow in fact.

I give the private edge to both NY and Pennsy (more so Empire rather than Keystone) on the private side but the overall cumulative effect has CA ahead from my total experiences.

In fact, California will produce even more courses than likely NY and PA combined in the years ahead. The likelihood is that California will only increase its portfolio and no doubt within that forthcoming portfolio will be a few high profile designs that merit national consideration -- both private and public.

« **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:55:48 PM »

Mark,

You got it brother! By the way, I really like TCC in Pepper Pike, OH. I wasn't thinking about anything in Dayton, OH. Where are we going to meet?

« **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:59:44 PM »

Quote from: John_Conley on July 18, 2007, 12:14:56 PM

But shouldn't MA beat out IL?

IL has Medinah, Butler, Chicago GC, Olympia Fields, Shoreacres, Rich Harvest, Canyata, Cog Hill, Black Sheep, Skokie, Kemper, Beverly, and Jans National to name a few. Not a bad start and I believe more quality at the top than MA.

« **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:08:01 PM »

Quote from: Wayne Morrison on July 18, 2007, 12:27:17 PM

I think PA acquits itself very well in every category you site, save one. Though I agree that diversity is important, PA offers quite a bit...just behind NY. Without Long Island, it isn't a contest. I hereby propose that Long Island secedes from NY and becomes North Pennsylvania. I'll call Eddie Rendell and see what he can do

Glad to have triggered this thought . . . I would have to say that if Long Island were it's own State it would rank atop the list and NY would not be in the top 5.

Consider the some of the LI courses:

Classic:

Fishers Island (yes, it's in Suffolk County) Shinnecock, National, Maidstone, Garden City GC, Engineers, Bethpage Black, the Creek, Piping Rock, Meadow Brook, Westhampton

Modern:

Friar's Head, Sebonack, Atlantic, Laurel Links, East Hampton, Tallgrass

I don't think NY could lose these courses and still be in the top 5 in the Country.

« **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:12:26 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on July 18, 2007, 01:46:26 PM

If the discussion is based on a 50/50 split between private and public and since IMHO, both NY and PA, are woefully deficient on the public side and trail CA by a considerable margin. That margin is continuing to grow in fact.

I give the private edge to both NY and Pennsy (more so Empire rather than Keystone) on the private side but the overall cumulative effect has CA ahead from my total experiences.

In fact, California will produce even more courses than likely NY and PA combined in the years ahead. The likelihood is that California will only increase its portfolio and no doubt within that forthcoming portfolio will be a few high profile designs that merit national consideration -- both private and public.

Thanks Matt, a thorough answer. I cannot disagree at all.

« **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:16:35 PM »

Here we go again. What are these wonderful publics that Ohio has, that I am missing?

« **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2007, 02:17:20 PM »

So as not to give large States too much of an advantage, how would considering only the top 5 designs in the State impact your analysis?

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