[Tom Zeni]

In a town south of Pittsburgh there is a wonderful 27 hole private club known as Valley Brook CC. Nine of the holes were done by Robert Trent Jones, and is always the most enjoyable of the trio.

Today was a "Stag" day. $100 per man. As we practiced at the range, we could readily notice that the greens were being double cut and rolled. This in heat of mid 80's to 90*.  We hit balls, and although more was offered, a light, mostly fruit lunch.

Afterword, on the putting green, was where Mr. Huntley's tip from my sojoun to the Shore Course at MPCC came to fruition. At Valley Brook, the greens were running at 13.1 on the stimp. Faster on the downhill. It was as I stroked my first practice putt that Bob's tip entered my thinking. Soft hands - toe the ball with the putter. After a horrific start of triple - double, I parred the following 7 holes. Twice with one putts from above the hole. But always the soft hands that Bob instilled into my thinking.

So why am I only telling you about the first 9 holes of this venture? Rain, and worse, lightning. With Doppler radar, they pulled us off the course 4 times in 9 holes.  They attempted to start another 4 times, but we never struck another ball.

We moved to the showers, then a steak dinner. All was fine until we began to hear the scores. We were at -8 and thought close, if not in the money.  Minus 9 was the last place winner in this 9 hole format. The winning score? -18 !!!! Yeah, I know. So did one guy who jumped to his feet screaming that was mathematically impossible!

After that outburst, and the rest of us realizing he was correct in his thinking - a pall fell over the event. The Pro laughed it off.

To that I say this. First, the member should be suspended since he was keeping score. Two, the guests should never again be permitted to step foot on the property. And three, since neither of those will happen, as my singular protest, I'll never ever play in that event again. Better that I burn a $100 bill in effigy than permit thieves parading as golfers to raid the pro shop with stolen money.

With that, I'm wondering if anyone plays the game of golf anymore? If you can't trust guys at a County Club to uphold the rules, where are you going to go?

[SPDB]

How is this mathematically impossible? Impossible, probably, but I'm not sure mathematics has anything to do with it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I stopped caring about "net" scores years ago.  Gross acore is golf.  Net is a sham.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Wonderful story with a sad contemporary reality ending.

I believe, where Bob lives, is one of the few places I know of where golfer's golf, and is why I consider it to be America's golf kingdom.

 Don't get me wrong, there are still those who try to trespass, and still some who get away with it, just not as blatently. But there are also savvy caretakers who know how to spot them and aren't afraid to protect the field.

[Tom Zeni]

SBerry,

You're correct. Based on the format, I should have stated "Statisically improbable" . Add to the -18 the fact that the closest to the pin, 6 par 3's on the 27 holes, was never less than 10ft. Yet they'd have to convert birds on 3 of their 4 scores. They'd have to had eagles on each of the par 5's, and birds on the remaining Par 4's.

So one of two things occurred. They lied about their scores, or they grossly exaggerated their handicaps into the 20's where they were gaining 2 shots per hole.

Now tell me, how many 20-something handi's can eagle two of the only two par 5's that they played? And remember, due to the stimp of 13.1,  anything above the hole was literally gone if you missed.

We had one player who hit 7 of 9 greens and walked away with only 3 pars. The greens were sloped, they were treacherous. You couldn't even charge an uphill putt, because of the slope on the other side of the pin, yet these 4 guys, (1 member and 3 guests) all in their late 50's and 60's were able to negotiate 9 holes, with 4 rain delays in -18.

I didn't notice Tiger and Lefty in their group, so if anyone can swallow that, as the saying goes, I have some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

Adam - Protecting the field. What a great reminder. Whatever happened to that concept? And, has it been replaced by a way of "networking" on the course? How about, 'Hey, I'm on the phone, putt out for me."

I'm sure it's time for some national attention. Time for Johnny Miller and other announcers to harp on "protecting the field." We want our kids to play fair, but not us.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

Crazy low results in net events are pretty normal.  As I read this, I'm not seeing anything all that extraordinary.  Yes that seems to be a very low score.  But you haven't stated what the format was, and I can't figure such out from your last post.

My bet is that at least some of the group just sandbagged like crazy - that is, they had the grossly exaggerated handicaps you state which got them two strokes per hole.  

That sadly tends to happen all the time also.

That's why I'm kind of with Tommy W. as pertains to net events among large groups of strangers - they should really never be treated as truly competitive exercises.

But what was the format?  Maybe we can figure this out a little better.

TH

[George Pazin]

Seems like the only reason to play in a handicap event is for fun!

Take heart, you could've been standing in my un-air-conditioned warehouse bay while my 40 foot dryer pumped out 350 degrees of heat.

 

[Tom Zeni]

Hi Tom,

The format was different from what's usual and customary,  but still statisically improbable for these guys to fudge a score so much that it was obviously out of kilter, to the tune of 6 strokes better than every other group playing the 27 hole layout.

Here it is.
You take your best single score on each of the Par 5's.
Your 2 best scores on each of the Par 4's.
Your 3 best scores on the Par 3's.
Let's also remember the conditions as I've stated in above posts, and the backbone of the layout is the strong Par 3's requiring long irons to hybrids. I've been told the par 3 on the RTJ nine is rated in the top 100 par 3's in the nation.

* George, before the rain, and actually after the rain, as temps and humidity regained it's grip, it's wasn't 350*, but Old Sol and Mother Nature were causing us to leak plenty of perspiration from every pore.

[Tom Huckaby]

TZ:

OK, obviously this group either cheated or sandbagged.  Winning the event by 6 strokes is pretty damning evidence there.  But... I don't see -18 as anything out of the ordinary, sadly enough.  Of course it's mathematically possible, but statistically improbable.  But look at it this way also - if the par threes are that tough, it's possible one or more in the group could have gotten two strokes on one of those holes... do the words "net zero" ring any bells?

Unlikely, yes.  But impossible?  Sadly no.

And this is why one really ought not to take net events such as this seriously - they should be treated as a fun exercise only (as George says) and those who stoop to such means to win them, well... they are to be pitied, not reviled.  Laugh at them.  Jeez if it's worth loss of honor to get some prize, then pity is the proper response.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

One of the most pernicious trends in handicap events is the "Good if the ball is within the leather." This is a misnomer because it really means within the shaft length. Just how many putts of thirty to thirty-six inches would be holed if attempted? Not a great many methinks.

Another thing, should anyone enter any event with a handicap greater than 18?

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

...
Now tell me, how many 20-something handi's can eagle two of the only two par 5's that they played? And remember, due to the stimp of 13.1,  anything above the hole was literally gone if you missed.
...

If you are talking net, this is actually very easy. The par 5s are often the 1 and 2 handicap holes. Any long hitting high handicapper is often going to have wedge or less (short pitch, chip) in his hand for his 3rd. When I play 2 best ball events, I often contribute net eagle on the par 5s. Don't have near as much luck elsewhere on the course.

[Tom Zeni]

Tom,

To my thinking, playing 9 holes at a -12 on this particular day with said conditions was ham and egging it as well as it could be done. -18 was freaking impossible for 9 holes with 4 separate starts.

In PA, and I think you saw it at Oakmont with Jim Furyk on the 17th hole, with the humidity this time of year, the ball carries much farther.  In short, you're guessing club selection all the time.

To your words, "and those who stoop to such means to win them, well... they are to be pitied, not reviled.  Laugh at them.  Jeez if it's worth loss of honor to get some prize, then pity is the proper response."  Good thoughts. They're ones that I couldn't gather in my anger, but they strike at the heart of my disappointment.

Bob - the lack of playing them down and holing them out could be a symptom of where our society is going. Speed. It's all people seem to care about. How fast can we get it done.

And you're correct, if people don't believe how many 3 footers can be missed... just ask Tom Watson. Thanks again for the putting tip. As are you, it was priceless.

[Jordan Wall]

Tom,

I may point out that 13.1 is likely faster than what Oakmont was for the US Open, and well faster than the weekly PGA Tour event.

Honestly, after thundershowers, I find it very hard to believe the greens were that fast.

Nonetheless, it sounds like you had a humbling experience.
Actually, its more of a dissapointing experience.
Whatever the case, it's probably good all the pro did was laugh it off...

[Tom Huckaby]

TZ:

Yeah, it's easy for me to sit here and write all that; it's a different story at the time one gets fleeced.  I know the first few times this happened to me, I reacted with less than equanimity.  But after awhile, you do come to realize this is just normal, and yes, the offenders are to be pitied.

I still think with a large number of handicap strokes -18 is believeable in that format, though.  What merits the pity is the sandbagging that had to occur to achieve the score... if not the outright cheating (giving putts, taking mulligans, etc.)

TH

[Tom Zeni]

Jordan,

With the Doppler radar, any lightning strike within 10 miles sets off the alarm, and we're off the course. The first rain was only a few minutes, passing quickly, with the heat and humidity returning just as fast. The following 3 were lightning related, as the storms passed through the region.

It was the final warning, and the 4 false starts afterward that killed the event with a combo of heavier rain and lightning.

Tom - I was just was speaking to another player in our group about the -18. The first thing he said was that he hoped the Pro pulled that member in, and at the very least told him that would never be tolerated again. He then said, with most groups at -8 and -9, that -12 was on the outside of any believable scoring for 9 holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

TZ:  well, as I said before, the large winning margin is enough alone to damn those guys.  So good for the pro.

My only reticence here is that well... I had a somewhat similar situation once, in which my four-man scramble team shot 54 and won a tournament by 5 shots.  We too received a lot of scorn... but I am here to tell you it was absolutely legit.  They had us playing very short tees on the course in question, making all par fives really par 4s... we eagled three of the four of them.  The rest becomes very believable.

So I'm not as ready to cry "impossible" as I might have been before that.

Your specifics are very different, however.  Those offenders perhaps do deserve more than pity.

 

[Tom Zeni]

TH -

I could buy into -18 more if it was a scramble, but we were all playing our own ball. That's a significant difference. For all these guys to be playing their own ball, supposedly hitting every green and dropping every putt on marble top greens is just inconceivable in those conditions.

[Tom Huckaby]

TZ:

OK, OK, you want your pound of flesh on this, and I don't blame you.  Having been on the other side of this scorn though, I remain open to more possibilities.

 

[Tom Zeni]

Yesterday, yes. No doubt, I was the Merchant of Venice.

Today, after reading your posts and others, I'm less agitated by it all. However, I learned my lesson about playing "net" with strangers.

Valley Brook - Some pics at their link.

http://www.valleybrookcc.com/

[Tom Huckaby]

Pretty cool looking course from the slideshow.

And yes, in the end it is better for one's sanity to treat events such as this as beer-drinking opportunities more than anything having to do with competitive golf.

 

Interestingly in the aforementioned 54 scramble round, many of such beverages were consumed by each participant.  Is there a lesson to be learned there?  Nah......

 

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Be part of the solution:  Post their names.

Mike

[Tom Zeni]

Last night, If I knew them, I certainly would have.

But now, it's time to let it go.

[Gary Slatter]

In a town south of Pittsburgh there is a wonderful 27 hole private club known as Valley Brook CC. Nine of the holes were done by Robert Trent Jones, and is always the most enjoyable of the trio.

Today was a "Stag" day. $100 per man. As we practiced at the range, we could readily notice that the greens were being double cut and rolled. This in heat of mid 80's to 90*.  We hit balls, and although more was offered, a light, mostly fruit lunch.

Afterword, on the putting green, was where Mr. Huntley's tip from my sojoun to the Shore Course at MPCC came to fruition. At Valley Brook, the greens were running at 13.1 on the stimp. Faster on the downhill. It was as I stroked my first practice putt that Bob's tip entered my thinking. Soft hands - toe the ball with the putter. After a horrific start of triple - double, I parred the following 7 holes. Twice with one putts from above the hole. But always the soft hands that Bob instilled into my thinking.

So why am I only telling you about the first 9 holes of this venture? Rain, and worse, lightning. With Doppler radar, they pulled us off the course 4 times in 9 holes.  They attempted to start another 4 times, but we never struck another ball.

We moved to the showers, then a steak dinner. All was fine until we began to hear the scores. We were at -8 and thought close, if not in the money.  Minus 9 was the last place winner in this 9 hole format. The winning score? -18 !!!! Yeah, I know. So did one guy who jumped to his feet screaming that was mathematically impossible!

After that outburst, and the rest of us realizing he was correct in his thinking - a pall fell over the event. The Pro laughed it off.

To that I say this. First, the member should be suspended since he was keeping score. Two, the guests should never again be permitted to step foot on the property. And three, since neither of those will happen, as my singular protest, I'll never ever play in that event again. Better that I burn a $100 bill in effigy than permit thieves parading as golfers to raid the pro shop with stolen money.

With that, I'm wondering if anyone plays the game of golf anymore? If you can't trust guys at a County Club to uphold the rules, where are you going to go?

My wife and I were invited to a tournament at Pinehurst two years ago, the night before they had a reception with all the prizes on display, they did a draw for EVERY prize, and then we played the tourney the next two days, for a little cup. Brilliant way to eliminate pothunters.

[Pete Lavallee]

Last night, If I knew them, I certainly would have.

But now, it's time to let it go.

Tom,

If these chaps had a handicp based only on their performance in tournaments (just like the CONGU system used everywhere, except in the US and Mexico), do you think the outcome might have been different.  

If so, write to the USGA and request they institute some type of official tournament handicapping, in addtion to the normal casual handicap. Just think, if two guys do it, they might just think it's a movement!

[David_Elvins]

Tom Zeni,

Firstly, be carefull.  The only thing worse than a cheating golfer is a golfer that accuses another of cheating for no other reason than they beat them.

Moving on to possible reasons for a legitimate anomoly in the scoring.

I think I understand your scoring system and it looks like there is ability of high handicappers to  do well on hard par 3s.  Lets say that all 4 players are old legitamite 27 handicappers who are short hitters with reasonable short games.  They play on a par 3 that is the hardest on the course.  They all get 2 shots.  lets say 1 makes par, 2 make bogeys, and the other makes a triple.  Thats 4 under for the hole and not too hard to do.  

Was it a shot gun start?  Could there have been an anomoly in the routing that allowed them to get 3 or 4 par 3s into their 9 holes?

If they played 4 hard par 3s, they could go along way towards 18 points right there with a bit of luck.

Is a scenario similar to this a posiibilty or did all players play the same 9 holes?

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