[Tom Renli]

I do not believe I have seen this issue posted.  Cabrera and his connections made comments after the Open to the effect of:

* I am a bad putter.
* Luckily, the greens at Oakmont were so difficult that no one made many/any putts.
* Effectively, nuetralized the field from a putting perspective and put far more emphasis on ball striking.

Seems like observations and statistically this proved true.  Woods was 0 for the world outside 12 feet.  I have never seen him putt so conservatively.  Nerves aside, Cabrera is a ball striker.  

USGA outthink themselves again?  Identify the best ball striker for the week and not player?

[JESII]

Tom,

You may never find greens that roll as pure as those greens at Oakmont appeared to do last week...it seemed to me that a majority of the hole locations were in low areas that did not give the players the opportunity to get below. Is that possible? Admittedly, I didn't see enough to speak with any authority on this.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmm... what's this I read?  Our Open champion confirms point made oh so long ago?  You know, the one called ludicrous, stupidest thing ever said on GCA, etc. etc. etc.

Paging George Pazin, among others.... what say you now?

Silly hard greens act as neutralizers, not separators.  I said it way back when, it's rather gratifying to see Cabrera agree.

So is he an idiot also?




 

[JESII]

Whatcha smokin' out there Huck?

[David Druzisky]

Thats great!  Funny how such a simple conclussion comes from the winner.

[Matt_Cohn]

I would say that it does not diminish the importance of putting, but it does give the better ballstriker more of an opportunity to pick up ground on the field from tee to green, which is what Cabrera seemed to do.

Look at Tiger in round 3. He hit the ball beautifully, made nothing, and still had I think the 2nd lowest round of the day. He separated himself solely through ballstriking.

[JESII]

... it's rather gratifying to see Cabrera agree.

So is he an idiot also?




 

Well, he does smoke cigarettes...

[Andrew Summerell]

For those who believe that putts should only be worth ½ a stroke, is having more difficult greens another way of achieving the same goal. ?

[TEPaul]

I can certainly see what Cabrera meant by those greens---eg those green speeds and putting difficulty.

Unless one has putted the greens of Oakmont it's pretty hard to comprehend what they can be like to putt.

I certainly understand what Woods meant about being defensive.

Miller said it best that when greens like those ones get like that one has to match the break and the speed so prefectly unless you don't mind a 6-10 ft comeback putt.

My sensation over the years in tournaments at Oakmont is that a 10 foot putt is somewhat like what a 3-4 ft putt feels like to most of us. Those greens are the fastest I've ever seen but they sure can be true. Get the ball on the right line with the right speed and it pretty much stays there.

I watched them stimp the 5th green a bunch of times about 7:30 Thursday morning and it didn't look to me like the tape-measure was stretched out all that far but I was about 15 yards away.

I bet they were about 12 but to us on those Oakmont greens that would feel like about a 15.

I have no idea who it was who was doing the stimping on that green even though I know it wasn't Mike Davis. Obviously those guys do it all the time but the thing that struck me is how fast he was stimping the balls. I believe one needs to be pretty careful with stimping---eg if you pick up the stimpmeter too quick and roll that ball out of there too fast you're gonna get an artificially high reading.

[Chris Cupit]

Hmmmm... what's this I read?  Our Open champion confirms point made oh so long ago?  You know, the one called ludicrous, stupidest thing ever said on GCA, etc. etc. etc.

Paging George Pazin, among others.... what say you now?

Silly hard greens act as neutralizers, not separators.  I said it way back when, it's rather gratifying to see Cabrera agree.

So is he an idiot also?




 

You and Angel are both correct.  Anyone that doesn't see that point has never played any serious golf.  

"Silly" hard greens neutralize good putters AND "Silly" hard/narrow fairways neutralize great drivers of the ball.

[Jim Nugent]

"Silly" hard greens neutralize good putters AND "Silly" hard/narrow fairways neutralize great drivers of the ball.

What do they do to average players, who play to around a 20 handicap?  I'm especially interested in how many putts the average guy is likely to take on those greens.  

[PThomas]

"Silly" hard greens neutralize good putters AND "Silly" hard/narrow fairways neutralize great drivers of the ball.

What do they do to average players, who play to around a 20 handicap?  I'm especially interested in how many putts the average guy is likely to take on those greens.  

probably means they're screwed!

[Chris Cupit]

Not trying to be a smart*ss but I think the average number of putts a 20 handicapper would have at Oakmont would be around 50  

I'm assuming about a 20 footer for the first putt per green.  You could certainly set up 1st putts there that would guarrantee 3 and 4 putts at best but you don't even need to do that to get the 20 handicapper 3 putting almost every green.

[Jerry Kluger]

I had Cabrera in a pool so I was watching him a bit more than most people and I would suggest that he was just being modest with his comments.  Cabrera has performed well in previous Opens and is in the top 50 in the world - you don't get there without being an excellent putter.  To me, I would say that Tiger is the best putter out there no matter what the statistics might show, and he demonstrated that on the 3 days that he didn't hit most of the greens in regulation.  Cabrera putted very well and let me tell you, he had as many putts that were within inches of the hole as any player in the field.  

The greens were fast and true - there were very few surprises out there.  The players had to be cautious and not have a putt get away from them but they could stroke a putt and it would go in.  

Tiger had his chances and yes, he did have one great ball striking round, but overall, he didn't out perform the field.  Tiger has nothing to be ashamed of but neither does Cabrera -he played well and so did Tiger and so did Furyk and a few others.  There are a whole bunch of guys out there who are great ball strikers who aren't at that level and they will tell you that the reason is putting - Cabrera can putt.

[John_Cullum]

It would seem to me that Oakmont's greens are no more challenging than Augusta National's.

Is the difference that they get to play Augusta Nat year after year?

[John Kirk]

Nobody made any putts.  That's no fun.

I agree completely with Cabrera's assessment.

Although there is an advantage to playing Augusta year after year, I'd argue that Oakmont's greens are tougher to read, and in fact have less smooth putting surfaces.  Bent grass is just smoother, and I saw imperfections last weekend on HDTV that surprised me.  I know Oakmont is prized for its smooth green surfaces, but I still saw the ball wobble.  It was better than Winged Foot last year, but I'm sorry to say I wasn't that impressed with the quality of the surfaces.  Bent is better.

Again I'm sorry to say I can't stick around and defend that position.  Back in a few hours to see how severe the burn marks are.

[Jim Nugent]

USGA outthink themselves again?  Identify the best ball striker for the week and not player?

Not sure exactly how you measure the best ball-striking, but Woods not Cabrera led the field in GIR.  

Chris -- thanks for estimating the number of putts a 20 handicapper might take.  I'm trying to guesstimate what that same 20 handicapper, who drives the ball 200 yards, would score at Oakmont from the tips, under U.S. Open conditions.  Any thoughts?  

[Brent Hutto]

I'm a 22-handicapper who drive the ball more like 190 yards right now. There isn't enough daylight today (longest day of the year) for me to finish a round at Oakmont playing the Open setup from the tips, or even from the Open tees.

My 190-yard crooked tee shots would end up in lies from which I'd take four or five wedge strokes to hack back to short grass if I were lucky and didn't pull or break something. And then I'd probably do it again on the second shot. And would probably happen on ten or more holes.

If I dropped a ball at the 100-yard marker on each hole I'll bet I wouldn't hit and hold more than half the greens at best. And no doubt I would putt completely off the green several times, maybe even two or more times on the same green with some of the Sunday pin positions.

Best guess, it would take me six sleeves of golf balls and an entire day to shoot my score of 300-ish under Open conditions. Just not doable.

[Chris Cupit]

USGA outthink themselves again?  Identify the best ball striker for the week and not player?

Not sure exactly how you measure the best ball-striking, but Woods not Cabrera led the field in GIR.  

Chris -- thanks for estimating the number of putts a 20 handicapper might take.  I'm trying to guesstimate what that same 20 handicapper, who drives the ball 200 yards, would score at Oakmont from the tips, under U.S. Open conditions.  Any thoughts?  

I'd wager and use 115 as the over/under number.  This assumes playing "by the rules" over the course as it was set up on any of he four days.  Having said that, a steady, straight 20 (not that there are many of them) may go out trying to just double every hole and that might be a good strategy to try and win the bet.

But, playing their normal game, I'm taking over 115.

[Steve Okula]

I watched them stimp the 5th green a bunch of times about 7:30 Thursday morning and it didn't look to me like the tape-measure was stretched out all that far but I was about 15 yards away.

I bet they were about 12 but to us on those Oakmont greens that would feel like about a 15.

I have no idea who it was who was doing the stimping on that green even though I know it wasn't Mike Davis. Obviously those guys do it all the time but the thing that struck me is how fast he was stimping the balls. I believe one needs to be pretty careful with stimping---eg if you pick up the stimpmeter too quick and roll that ball out of there too fast you're gonna get an artificially high reading.

I wondered the same thing, about using a stimpmeter, if it would make any difference if it was raised slowly, just until the ball left the notch, or quickly, and continued being raised as the ball rolled down the slot. I use a stimpmeter every day, and I have tried it in every conceivable fashion to try to affect the roll, and I found whatever I did it made no difference in the readings whatsoever. The damned thing is about foolproof.

[George Pazin]

Hmmmm... what's this I read?  Our Open champion confirms point made oh so long ago?  You know, the one called ludicrous, stupidest thing ever said on GCA, etc. etc. etc.

Paging George Pazin, among others.... what say you now?

Silly hard greens act as neutralizers, not separators.  I said it way back when, it's rather gratifying to see Cabrera agree.

So is he an idiot also?




 

Yep.

Angel may normally be a bad putter, but more likely he is a streaky putter, and caught a good streak. Damn near everyone else on the leaderboard is known as a good putter - Woods, Furyk, Baddeley, Stricker, Toms, Rose. Only Singh stands out as someone in the latter groups who is known as a bad putter, and he manages to play well everywhere else, too.

[Rich Goodale]

I will agree with John Kirk

When the cameras got up close and personal, the greens looked anything but smooth.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry George.  That's one way to attempt to explain this (the wrong way).  What actually occurred is that the greens were so difficult, no one made any putts of any length - even Cabrera.  Thus the field was equalized.  Thus my "idiotic, ludicrous" point was proven, once and for all.

So it is written, so it shall be done.  Such great minds as Mike Nuzzo now take it as a given, and have moved on to query about wind.

[Jim Nugent]

USGA outthink themselves again?  Identify the best ball striker for the week and not player?

Not sure exactly how you measure the best ball-striking, but Woods not Cabrera led the field in GIR.  

Chris -- thanks for estimating the number of putts a 20 handicapper might take.  I'm trying to guesstimate what that same 20 handicapper, who drives the ball 200 yards, would score at Oakmont from the tips, under U.S. Open conditions.  Any thoughts?  

I'd wager and use 115 as the over/under number.  This assumes playing "by the rules" over the course as it was set up on any of he four days.  Having said that, a steady, straight 20 (not that there are many of them) may go out trying to just double every hole and that might be a good strategy to try and win the bet.

But, playing their normal game, I'm taking over 115.

I'm thinking over 115, too.  Figure they will miss lots of fairways, with their drives, 2nd shots, and 3rd or 4th shots too.  As Brent said, that heavy rough will kill their score: they might take several shots just to get out.  What does a guy who can only drive the ball 200 yards do when his ball is stuck at the bottom of that 5" deep rough?

They also will hit into more than one bunker.  Another killer.  Then on top of that they have 50 or so putts on the greens.  I could see the score ballooning real fast.  

[George Pazin]

USGA outthink themselves again?  Identify the best ball striker for the week and not player?

Not sure exactly how you measure the best ball-striking, but Woods not Cabrera led the field in GIR.  

Chris -- thanks for estimating the number of putts a 20 handicapper might take.  I'm trying to guesstimate what that same 20 handicapper, who drives the ball 200 yards, would score at Oakmont from the tips, under U.S. Open conditions.  Any thoughts?  

I'd wager and use 115 as the over/under number.  This assumes playing "by the rules" over the course as it was set up on any of he four days.  Having said that, a steady, straight 20 (not that there are many of them) may go out trying to just double every hole and that might be a good strategy to try and win the bet.

But, playing their normal game, I'm taking over 115.

Nowhere close to 115, no way. Good lord, there were pros who didn't break 80. When you go out and try to double bogey everything, you end up with a lot of triples and others.

I have a friend who used to caddy and work the grounds crew at Oakmont. His best at Oakmont is a 75. He played a day or two after the 94 Open and didn't break 100.

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