Lakota Canyon Ranch-CO, Jim Engh

« **on:** June 20, 2007, 12:34:58 PM »

Wow!!! I just stumbled onto this golf course on the net. This public course looks fascinating. Anyone played it? Also, I thought the card was extremely interesting. 5 par 5's and 5 par 3's. Three of the first five holes are par 5's. What is this like? Anyone know of a course that has more or equal par 5's in the first five holes?

« **Reply #1 on:** June 20, 2007, 12:53:37 PM »

I guess its good to see the site hasn't lost its sense of humor...

« **Reply #2 on:** June 20, 2007, 01:21:57 PM »

Nice post Kalen. Care to clue me in to your vast wisdom?

« **Reply #3 on:** June 20, 2007, 01:38:12 PM »

Quote from: Glenn Spencer on June 20, 2007, 01:21:57 PM

Nice post Kalen. Care to clue me in to your vast wisdom?

I can only assume you've been hiding for the past few months, my apologies if you've been away. There has been a couple of massive threads on this, most recently when a few of us GCA'ers went on an excursion to go play it. I'll dig up the link to the most recent thread.

« **Reply #4 on:** June 20, 2007, 01:46:04 PM »

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=29608

« **Reply #5 on:** June 20, 2007, 02:04:34 PM »

Thanks for the links. Please forgive me, I do take a break from the site to eat, drink water and sleep. A simple, this has been discussed before usually works. My memory is so bad, I may even posted on that thread and not remembered. I don't at all understand your "joke", but again, thanks for the links.

« **Reply #6 on:** June 20, 2007, 02:09:16 PM »

Glenn -

You may want to IM Cary or Matt Ward. Cary said it is in his top 20 I believe and Matt raves about it. I am actually going to check it out next week so I am looking forward to it.

Jim

« **Reply #7 on:** June 20, 2007, 02:13:56 PM »

I can see why, it looks fabulous. 5 par 5's has got to be fun. I imagine it would be really cool to be from the area and play it a lot. I would think you could have some interesting scores and thoughts after 5 holes!! If I keep this up kind of stuff. I am sure that it gets you later on though. Have a great time out there, although, not too many Canes fans to talk to. 23-3 05?

« **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2007, 05:15:38 PM »

Not funny for the residents, but the course may be "up in smoke."

http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?articleId=6185920&siteId=36

And no the fire wasn't caused by a smoking golfer tossing aside his lit butt. Oops wrong thread...

« **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2007, 06:47:58 PM »

Sorry to hear about the fire, hopefully it doesnt create more problems for the area in general.

Jim,
Enjoy, Lakota is quite an experience, its a course that I actually decided I liked better a week later than I did when I played it, which surprised me given that it strikes many as a "WOW" factor course.

Glenn,
Very worthwhile course, as is Redlands Mesa an hour or so down the road. I think there are probably quite a few others in that area that would be neat to play, but I haven't had the chance yet.

« **Reply #10 on:** June 21, 2007, 07:11:55 PM »

I played it last year and Castle Pines the next day. Lakota blew Castle Pines out of the water, I would kill to play a course of that quality everyday. I had never heard of Jim Engh before my trip to Colorado now I am very interested in his work.

« **Reply #11 on:** June 21, 2007, 07:17:28 PM »

Next time your in the area, you'll have to drive over to Grand Junction and take in Redlands Mesa. Jim Engh did that one as well and is also very much worth a play...

If I had 10 plays I'd probably break em up:

6 at LC
4 at RM

« **Reply #12 on:** June 21, 2007, 08:14:42 PM »

Glenn,
I forgot to answer your first question, but Arcadia Bluffs also has three five pars in the first five holes (#1, 3, 5).

The three at Lakota do not necessarily make for an easy starting stretch by any means. They may be reachable, but there are many hazards along the way!

« **Reply #13 on:** June 21, 2007, 09:08:22 PM »

Andy,

I think you have played several Engh courses....I have played Tullymore and True North.

Apart from those two...or maybe including them, do you recall many of his par 5's having the green protected by trees, water and sand? If memory serves, I think all the 5's at Tullymore required the negotiation of all three hazards, at least from certain angles, to get to the green.

Any recollection? Is this common among his other efforts? How do you view this form of strategic dictation?

Thanks,

Joe

« **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2007, 11:00:14 PM »

Joe,
The par fives at Tullymore have more tree trouble than the three Colorado courses I've seen (Lakota, Redlands, Pradera), with #8 having the "tree-gate" of sorts and #18 also having a couple that challenge going for the green. There's a fair bit of water on the ones at Tullymore too.

The sand and water are fairly evident in Colorado as well, with not as much water as Tullymore (mainly because Tullymore appeared to built of of a swamp somewhat...so there's a lot of water to be found). Lakota has a fair amount of water, but less so at Pradera and Redlands. There are smaller trees present occasionally, but nothing like Tullymore.

I really like the use of the trees to dictate angles at Tullymore. Especially on #18 it forces you to take a brave line to give yourself a real chance to get home in two. Two well-placed shots leave a clear 3rd, however. The water really creates heroic opportunities as well. They're usually very daring and very fun.

If I had to pick a negative there is some repetitiveness to them, especially once you've seen a few Engh courses. I'm not sure I couldn't say something in that regard about just about any architect, but Engh's style is dramatic and unique, so it stands out more with him. Plus I tend to like his templates and hole styles, so I enjoy seeing them on different pieces of ground.

They often tend to be downhill. The 5th at Lakota is 600+ yards and I hit the green in two with an iron. Same with #16 at Pradera. Those are the only two times I've ever hit two shots that far with any two clubs

« **Reply #15 on:** June 22, 2007, 12:15:10 AM »

Well what Andy isn't telling you is that he's an absolute monster with that driver. The downhilll Engh holes are no match for his driving abilities.

I drove it past him I think only once when I got a bounce off the cart path..

« **Reply #16 on:** June 22, 2007, 12:25:39 AM »

Yeah but I only hit it straight a couple times a round. I just seem to be able to pull off good ones off the elevated tees! Which is why on some of those other holes Kalen has pictures of me wandering around on rocks and other places that no golfer should ever go...

« **Reply #17 on:** June 22, 2007, 11:16:23 AM »

Quote from: Andy Troeger on June 21, 2007, 08:14:42 PM

Glenn,
I forgot to answer your first question, but Arcadia Bluffs also has three five pars in the first five holes (#1, 3, 5).

The three at Lakota do not necessarily make for an easy starting stretch by any means. They may be reachable, but there are many hazards along the way!

Thanks, Andy. I am sure there are some hazards, but still, it has to be in your mind, at least somewhat.

I wasn't aware that Arcadia had that going on. I can probably swing over and get that one done. Is it REALLY worth it? Must see? How does it compare to say, The Wolf? What would your 10-round split be for those two? Thanks

« **Reply #18 on:** June 23, 2007, 02:31:05 AM »

Glenn,
Wolf Run might not be the best comparison with me because its in my 2-3 favorite courses, but WR/Arcadia for me would be 8-2 or 7-3 Wolf. Arcadia/Crooked Stick would be about 5-5, with the 11th round being at Arcadia if I had to break a tie.

There's enough good golf around Arcadia that you could make a worthwhile trip up there and play more than just the one course. I know I don't have many supporters on this, but when I played Arcadia Bluffs and Tullymore on the same trip a couple years back I liked Tullymore better. The guy I played with thought I was nuts too

« **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2007, 10:46:30 AM »

Okay, I am surpised that you didn't go 10-0 for the Wolf. Arcadia must be pretty damn good then. I will have to give that a real effort then. Thanks, Andy. Tullymore? I need to check that out as well, I haven't seen any Engh courses to my knowledge.

« **Reply #20 on:** June 23, 2007, 11:46:53 AM »

Glenn, Nice Caveat.

Mr. Engh was lead designer for IMG many moons ago. So, if you've played any Mark McCormack courses, they were likely his. Many overseas.

Jim is getting recognition for his new bold style, which he considers envelope pushing and may not be evident in those earlier designs. (I don't know I've never played any McCormack courses.) He freely admits he will borrow from the ODG's and has a test for the Irish and Scottish courses he plays. It's called the pirouette. When he's walking the grounds, if he finds himself doing these 360 degree turns looking around in awe, the course passes the pirouette test.

« **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2007, 11:51:08 AM »

Quote from: Adam Clayman on June 23, 2007, 11:46:53 AM

Glenn, Nice Caveat.

Mr. Engh was lead designer for IMG many moons ago. So, if you've played any Mark McCormack courses, they were likely his. Many overseas.

Jim is getting recognition for his new bold style, which he considers envelope pushing and may not be evident in those earlier designs. (I don't know I've never played any McCormack courses.) He freely admits he will borrow from the ODG's and has a test for the Irish and Scottish courses he plays. It's called the pirouette. When he's walking the grounds, if he finds himself doing these 360 degree turns looking around in awe, the course passes the pirouette test.

I never heard of the pirouette test, but I do that as well, which I always thought of as part of the eye candy test if you will.

What is ODG's?

« **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2007, 12:10:32 PM »

Old Dead Guys.

News:

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