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Ron Farris

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Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« on: June 16, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »
While driving the other day, listening to XM Radio, I swear I heard them say that the greens at Oakmont were Perennial Poa Annua and thus difficult to putt.  Is that an Oxymoron?  Granted they appear hard to putt.
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Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 05:07:35 PM »
Now Johnny Miller just said that it was a type of Poa only available at Oakmont.  Whatup?  Come on superintendents!
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Craig Sweet

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2007, 05:40:49 PM »
A lot of Poa Annua greens have a Hienz 57 blend of poa...I have read that the Oakmont greens over the years have had a good hardy variety of poa survive and dominate...

I think you will find lots of supers that will tell you the right poa annua makes an excellent putting surface so long as you maintain it as such...
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John Foley

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2007, 07:43:27 PM »
Ron,

I read somehwere in the last week or so that Oakmont's green's are a Pao strain that does not produce seed heads (and therfore get lumpy/uneven) like what we saw at WF last year.

The question I'm wondering about is the grass on the greens the original grass? They've had to do something over the years, but what? Have they ever done a fumagate & replant like I know a few have Oak Hill before the Ryder cup for one.
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TEPaul

Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2007, 07:48:10 PM »
It seems like the greens on some of the greatest courses around here like Merion, PVGC and Oakmont are all kinds of strains including a lot of poa. Some of the real old championship courses seem to just like it that way.
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2007, 08:03:24 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on June 16, 2007, 07:48:10 PM
It seems like the greens on some of the greatest courses around here like Merion, PVGC and Oakmont are all kinds of strains including a lot of poa. Some of the real old championship courses seem to just like it that way.

Which ties back into the argument that USGA spec greens suck.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 08:03:45 PM by Ryan Potts »
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2007, 08:19:34 PM »
Ryan,

Where are the one hundred year old USGA spec greens you're comparing to, just to make sure we're apples to apples here?

Plants adapt. The poa at Oakmont adapted to be what it is today. They have been cutting edge for a long, long time, and the grass has adapted in order to survive.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2007, 08:23:15 PM »
"Which ties back into the argument that USGA spec greens suck."

Ryan:

I don't think I'd make that deduction just because many of the old pushup greens on some of the greatest of the old courses still work well enough. Many of them just require entirely different maintenance and management. Matt Shaeffer, super of Merion, for instance, calls his old pushups "bathtubs". These days to work well he says they have to be kept very dry or the grass on them could be a competitive mess which frankly he seems to think they are anyway despite the fact he's able to manage and maintain them beautifully.

A few weeks ago I took a ride around the course with him and I asked him what some strains were on the 15th green and he looked down and said:

"I have no idea".

You gotta love a guy with that attitude and humor.
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 08:31:23 PM »
The nature of Poa allows for the undulations that we are seeing at Oakmont.  The little water they added really changed their nature from one day to the next.

Ryan, Keep those pithy comments coming. Is there anything positive you have to say about a subject you have a clue on?
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JR Potts

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2007, 08:31:28 PM »
No, I made this deduction based upon several facts:

1) All of the old push up greens that I see on TV look awesome,....despite the strains of grass.  They have original contours and seem to handle green speeds of any type.

2) My home course switched to USGA spec greens in 1988.  This year, for the first time, the greens behave and roll like the greens I remember in 1986 and that currently exist on our other two courses.  Unfortunately, gone are the contours of the 1986 greens.

3) My home course had to endure years of terrible greens due to the USGA's mandate.  Olympia Fields, a local course, has had similar problems.  In fact, each course I've seen the has switched over, has degraded in quality.

That's my logic.....when I saw Oakmont's greens and heard the comments that it was poa, it merely reaffirmed my position.  Is it wrong, maybe?  But is it what I feel, yes.  Prove me wrong.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 08:46:23 PM by Ryan Potts »
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JR Potts

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2007, 08:34:52 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on June 16, 2007, 08:31:23 PM
The nature of Poa allows for the undulations that we are seeing at Oakmont.  The little water they added really changed their nature from one day to the next.

Ryan, Keep those pithy comments coming. Is there anything positive you have to say about a subject you have a clue on?

Learn to write, please.  I can't even begin to comprehend the jumble of words which you attempt to string together.  But doing my best, yes, maybe I'll post a thread on what it feels like to break 90.  At least I won't have to deal with you on that one.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 08:41:54 PM by Ryan Potts »
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2007, 08:42:29 PM »
A dangerous greens committee member in the making...

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2007, 08:49:31 PM »
No, I don't get involved in it.  The country club is a sanctuary away from making decisions and voluntering.  I just go out there, play and spend time with my family and friends.

I do my complaining on this site.  However, on this site I seem to attract 100% more namecalling than I have in my day-to-day life.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 08:50:58 PM by Ryan Potts »
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TEPaul

Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2007, 08:52:05 PM »
Ryan:

I think what you're trying to say is that it's pretty hard to design USGA spec greens that have as many interesting and nuancy contours in them that the old pushup greens have and that does seem to be the case. Not that it can't be done with USGA spec greens but there's a pretty good reason it generally isn't done.
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2007, 08:56:14 PM »
Ryan,

I didn't mean it as name calling. I am calling out the process of logical decisions for a golf course. Citing TV viewing and short term project results vs. long term good management techniques is dangerous, IMO.

If you post an opinion, expect differing opinions. I know I march to the beat of a different drummer, so I expect others to have a differing viewpoint.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2007, 08:57:18 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on June 16, 2007, 08:52:05 PM
Ryan:

I think what you're trying to say is that it's pretty hard to design USGA spec greens that have as many interesting and nuancy contours in them that the old pushup greens have and that does seem to be the case. Not that it can't be done with USGA spec greens but there's a pretty good reason it generally isn't done.

That's kind of what I'm trying to say but not exactly.  What I was really saying is that in my experience playing golf (and I've played a ton of golf all over the country), all of the greens that I've looked at with admiration were NOT USGA spec. greens.  They were the originals.  I've seen too many clubs, especially in the Chicagoland area, destroy the character and quality of their greens by attempting to rebuild pursuant to USGA specs.  That's all I was saying.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 08:58:25 PM by Ryan Potts »
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JR Potts

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2007, 08:58:10 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on June 16, 2007, 08:56:14 PM
Ryan,

I didn't mean it as name calling. I am calling out the process of logical decisions for a golf course. Citing TV viewing and short term project results vs. long term good management techniques is dangerous, IMO.

If you post an opinion, expect differing opinions. I know I march to the beat of a different drummer, so I expect others to have a differing viewpoint.

Joe

Joe:  I wasn't referring to you.  I actually laughed when I read your post.
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2007, 08:59:32 PM »
Ryan, Your jumble of words implied that Oakmont's greens are USGA Spec.

Forgive me if I read you wrong.



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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2007, 09:02:38 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on June 16, 2007, 08:59:32 PM
Ryan, Your jumble of words implied that Oakmont's greens are USGA Spec.

Forgive me if I read you wrong.



Why, is Phil complaining about the greens at Oakmont too?  ;D

So forgiven.
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Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2007, 09:11:25 PM »
So does Poa Annua mean fescue, annual bluegrass, colonial bent, pencross bent, A series, or Penneagle?  ???

I have not seen the greens in person, but for Tiger to play the way he did and miss that many puts ---- well it must be the monkey grass that has mutated over the years at this fabulous golf course ;)

Adam: Keep up your ramblings.  The art of decifering the words posted on this site is an art.  People dend to confuse science and art. ;D
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Craig Sweet

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2007, 09:56:12 PM »
Poa annua is blue grass...but there happens to be many strains of poa annua..

Here's some interesting research...

http://cropsoil.psu.edu/Research/poa/poa.htm
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TEPaul

Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2007, 10:07:41 PM »
"I've seen too many clubs, especially in the Chicagoland area, destroy the character and quality of their greens by attempting to rebuild pursuant to USGA specs.  That's all I was saying."

Ryan:

You're most likely right about that. A good example are these so-called famous "turtle-backed" greens of Pinehurst #2. Those things are rebuilt USGA spec greens and I doubt Ross would even recognize them.  ;)
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2007, 10:24:53 PM »
Many grass types now in use were first discovered in older turf stands. Grasses change. They mutates, hybridize, adapt...sometimes for the better, but sometimes not.
Whatever type of grasses, or combinations of, that make up Oakmont's green surfaces, have been managed through the years to produce exceptional putting green quality. Most likely they have been kept dry and lean and a very hardy strain of poa annua has crowded out the weaker grasses. It's a survival of the fittest type thing combined with great management that creates those long term great surfaces.

One point I'll debate is that the poa at Oakmont doesn't create seed heads. Almost all grasses make some sort of seed head, and poa as we know is no exception. Modern chemistry in the hands of a highly competent superintendent can almost eliminate seed heads on poa. It's not always 100% effective, timing of applications can get tricky when Mother Nature has her little anomalies, but I managed poa greens in Oregon for 2 years and had very little seed head issues, and I'm no where near the expert that a guy like John Zimmer is when it comes to poa management.
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John Kirk

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2007, 10:59:49 PM »
A great study in evolutionary adaptation to growing conditions.  Poa annua mutates over 40-60 years to a perennial strain:

http://usgatero.msu.edu/v03/n09.pdf
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Ron Farris

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Re:Perennial Poa Annua at Oakmont?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2007, 12:01:16 AM »
Thanks John, that was the response I was hoping to find.
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