[David Stamm]

Last night I was watching the re-broadcast of the Champions event and Tom Kite was asked what his impressions of Oakmont in the past has been. He said that it fair but very difficult. I know that this isn't a new description for any course and has been used at nauseum by many tour players in the past, but I couldn't help but think, what does this exactly mean in their minds? And more importantly, can a great course be difficult and fair at the same time? If difficulty is pushed to the limit, like at Shinnecock during the Open, then fair can no longer apply in that instance. Where is the fine line?

[BCrosby]

David -

I would suggest that you are having trouble understanding what Kite means because he is being incoherent.

Inanimate objects like hamburgers, hats and cars are neither fair nor unfair. Nor are golf courses, as long as everyone is playing the same course. (And even then its not a matter of the fairness of the course itself but the fairness of the competition rules.)

"Fairness" is a normative concept dealing with procedural matters with human agents. The term has no application to inanimate things like golf courses.

Using the term the way Kite did is to commit a category mistake that will get you a F in philosophy 101. (Or will the course be set up differently for Kite than the other competitors?)

What people mean when they use "unfair" is that the course is too hard. But that sounds wimpy. So nobody talks that way.

What Kite should have said is that Oakmont is difficult, but not too difficult. That is coherent. And what I think he actually meant.

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

From reading Alister MacKenzie's Spirit of St. Andrews, I would summarize his idea of what highly skilled golfers think is unfair as anything that keeps them from shooting the lowest score possible. Therefore, blind shots are unfair, bunkers on the right side of a green where the green slopes away from said bunkers, bunkers in the middle of the fairway on the best line of approach to the green, etc.

[Jason Topp]

According to Jack Burke Jr's "It's only a game" he opines that tour pros do not like courses that can lead to a big number.  He'll accept a double bogey if it is caused by a truly horrible shot but what he does not like is if a marginally bad shot leads to a quadruple bogey.

I am pretty sympathetic to the perspective when playing stroke play competitions.  I think it matches pretty closely the definition of fairness used by most players.    

[Garland Bayley]

According to Jack Burke Jr's "It's only a game" he opines that tour pros do not like courses that can lead to a big number.  He'll accept a double bogey if it is caused by a truly horrible shot but what he does not like is if a marginally bad shot leads to a quadruple bogey.
...  

I would really be interested in learning of some examples of "marginally bad shots" that lead to an additional 4 stroke to your score for the hole.

[David Ober]

I've listened to a lot of you in the past lay into pros and tournament players who decry a course as "unfair," and I thought I would finally pipe up about this.

Maybe "fair/unfair" is not the right word, but I believe it certainly comes close to describing certain golf courses/holes under certain conditions. A perfect example is a cup that is cut on such a severe slope that any ball putted up to it that doesn't go into the hole has a good chance of rolling back more than eight feet below the hole.

There is not a stroke play tournament player in the world who would call that hole "unfair" or "rinky-dink" or "mini-golf" or "ridiculous." So go ahead and take issue with the word unfair if you like, but the fact remains that there is virtually no one in the world who plays serious stroke play golf that wouldn't have a problem with that.

A few players will make their first putt on a hole that difficult, the rest will be at the mercy of gravity and whether or not their ball comes to rest against a small grain of sand or a slight indentation -- in other words, some players will get lucky on a hole like that, while others are looking at a five putt or worse!

Does luck play a role in golf all the time? Of course, no one is saying it doesn't or shouldn't. However, I believe that the role that luck plays should be one stroke here or there, and not four or five strokes on one flippin' hole from one flippin' shot.

So ask yourself, would you really like to watch a hole like that, where a couple guys make birdie and the rest of them putt, putt, putt, putt, putt, putt, until they finally make one, only to see the next group come up and one of the guy's balls happens to stay next to the hole because it comes to rest against a spike mark.

I don't know about you, but that's no fun to watch, no fun to play, and no fun to be responsible for if I were part of the tournament committee.

That's just my opinion, though, of course. :-)

[Garland Bayley]

David,

Whenever I have seen fair/unfair discussed, your example seems to be the one thing everyone agrees is unfair. However, that does not make the course unfair. It simply means the person cutting the hole made a mistake, or the maintenance of the course was inappropriate, e.g. the 7th at Shinnecock at the open.

[Phil Benedict]

I think the most obvious of unfairness in golf is a hole location where you can't stop the ball near the hole with a putt unless you make it.  The 18th at Olympic in '98 is the best example I can think of.  It was unfair to everyone, but evenhandedness doesn't lessen the basic unfairness of the set up.

[cary lichtenstein]

My standard test is did I have fun playing that course and do I want to play it again.

If it beat me up, took away recovery shots and made me hit lag putts all day, it was unfair in my book and just not fun.

I know there are courses I think are terrific but 18 handicaps think are quite unfair, so I think a good portion depends on the level of your game.

I can only think of 2 or 3 courses that I would consider unfair, but I haven't played any of the US Open courses when they were set up for the Open except Baltustrol the day after the 1980 US Open.

My guess that most would not be fun and 4 days of grind would be long down my list of my idea of having fun.

[Adam Clayman]

A perfect example is a cup that is cut on such a severe slope that any ball putted up to it that doesn't go into the hole has a good chance of rolling back more than eight feet below the hole.

There is not a stroke play tournament player in the world who would call that hole "unfair" or "rinky-dink" or "mini-golf" or "ridiculous." So go ahead and take issue with the word unfair if you like, but the fact remains that there is virtually no one in the world who plays serious stroke play golf that wouldn't have a problem with that.

Let me get this str8.

One poor hole postion can render an entire course unfair?

Why is asking the stroke tournament player to be perfect on a putt unfair?

As someone who has benefitted from a hole position as described, I found the challenge to be thrilling, and rose to the occasion.

[Peter Pallotta]

"I would suggest that you are having trouble understanding what Kite means because he is being incoherent"

"Fairness is a normative concept dealing with procedural matters with human agents. The term has no application to inanimate things like golf courses."

Bob C
no matter how many times or in how many different ways you say this, I never tire of it, and it's always right. I've finally found a good reason for making philosophy class mandatory in high-school - then we might never hear another professional golfer talk about a golf course being "fair"...and even if he did, all the other golfers would laugh at him. "Ha, ha, category mistake!".

Actually, I think that's how Trevino got into Jack's head before their US Open playoff.  

Peter

[David Ober]

A perfect example is a cup that is cut on such a severe slope that any ball putted up to it that doesn't go into the hole has a good chance of rolling back more than eight feet below the hole.

There is not a stroke play tournament player in the world who would call that hole "unfair" or "rinky-dink" or "mini-golf" or "ridiculous." So go ahead and take issue with the word unfair if you like, but the fact remains that there is virtually no one in the world who plays serious stroke play golf that wouldn't have a problem with that.

Let me get this str8.

One poor hole postion can render an entire course unfair?

Why is asking the stroke tournament player to be perfect on a putt unfair?

As someone who has benefitted from a hole position as described, I found the challenge to be thrilling, and rose to the occasion.

Absolutely, just one hole can do it. If the disparity in scores amongst players who hit the green is from 3 to 10. That's not golf, that's a travesty.

You're cruising along at 2-under par and you come to the hole in question. You knock your approach next to the hole, but it roles down the slope and leaves you 20 feet. No big deal.

You barely miss the 20-footer and it rolls 15 feet back down the slope. You miss it again and the same result. Again. Again. Finally you make it for an 8 or some such. That's just ridiculous golf, in my opinion.

And lest we confuse things, this is ALL about opinion, philosophy class definitions of words like "unfair" notwithstanding.

I'm glad you benefitted, by the way. Good for you. How would have felt if you had made a nine? I'm sure your answer is going to be something pithy, which is fine. Just know that the vast, vast majority of serious tournament players don't share your opinion. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is.

[TEPaul]

David:

I'd say that generally the line is where a golfer who's both smart and good with execution thinks well and executes well and still gets screwed something has gone over the edge with this thing that people call "fairness".

On the other hand, what is a competitor going to do with this thing in golf that we call "that's the way the ball bounces"? The point is if that happens to him despite all his best efforts he just has to suck it up and go on to the next shot sort of unbagged.

[David Ober]

I would suggest that you are having trouble understanding what Kite means because he is being incoherent.

What word or phrase would you have him use to describe the situation then? After all, words serve human beings, not the other way around.

What I mean by that is: When a golfer like Tom Kite says that Oakmont is "tough but fair," a sizeable portion of the golfing public (including myself) understands precisely what he is saying. He employed a term that has entered the golfing vernacular, and there is nothing you can do about that save resorting to pedantry. The fact that you choose not to understand it doesn't strip his sentence of its meaning to others.

A hole -- or the committee that sets up the hole, if you prefer -- is "unfair" when it elevates luck far above skill for the majority of players playing the hole.

A golf course is "unfair" when it has several such holes, or even one hole where the ratio of luck to skill is so out of whack that wild disparities in putts occur from a sizable portion of the players.

That's my definition. I bet you that Kite's is pretty similar.

[Jim Nugent]

David, I think I agree with you, for stroke play tournaments.  How often do you come across those kinds of pins?  Do any courses/tournaments come to mind?

Also, any other examples of unfairness?  

[Peter Pallotta]

David
I think all three of your posts have been good ones, but I think that one can argue -- in the terms you set out in your last post -- that a sentence like the one Kite uttered has in fact been stripped of ALL meaning, in any meaningful sense that is. Most golfers hearing it, including me, might THINK we know what it means, but we'd be wrong*.

(And that's a case where language, which, yes, serves human beings and not the other way around, wouldn't really be serving us at all...unless all that we want is just to nod our heads and say, "oh, yeah, I know what he means" and happily move on without giving the words a second thought.)  

*It is just my opinion, of course, but I think Tom Kite probably DID mean "it's difficult but not too difficult". Why do I think that? Because I can't think of many times at all in years and years of watching professional golf that a hole or a course elevated "luck far above skill", or that a hole produced across the board those quads or four-putts you mentioned. (And, as you'd probably agree, a little bit of 'luck' is part of the sport). Even the Shinnecock hole that 'got out of control' didn't prove 'unfair' did it? I mean, I think the winner handled it pretty well.

Peter  

[AndrewB]

Even if Kite had said "it's difficult but not too difficult", does that make it mean something?  I'd still be asking "too difficult for what?".  I'd like him to say: "it's difficult but not so difficult that ..." and go on to explain what sort of things happen when a course gets more difficult than whatever notion he has of an appropriate level of difficulty.  Then we'd actually understand what he meant.

This thread feels like a religious war to me, so I'll leave it at that.

[David Ober]

Even if Kite had said "it's difficult but not too difficult", does that make it mean something?  I'd still be asking "too difficult for what?".  I'd like him to say: "it's difficult but not so difficult that ..." and go on to explain what sort of things happen when a course gets more difficult than whatever notion he has of an appropriate level of difficulty.  Then we'd actually understand what he meant.

This thread feels like a religious war to me, so I'll leave it at that.

It DOES feel like a religious war. LOL!

Keep in mind, though, that I was only responding to the dogmatic first reply to the OP. I have no problem with anyone thinking that a hole can't be "unfair." I do, however, have a problem with people who feel the need to subtly belittle those of a different mind on the subject.

[David Ober]

David, I think I agree with you, for stroke play tournaments.  How often do you come across those kinds of pins?  Do any courses/tournaments come to mind?

Also, any other examples of unfairness?  

I've played tournaments where it's happened. My club's member/member a few years back for one. #17 at Cayon Crest CC in Riverside, California. The pin was cut on the middle left, and any putt you hit would roll back at least 12 to 15 feet. The greens were fast and bumpy. The worst possible combination.

With regard to other tournaments: It's a very rare occurence because most tournament organizers and committee members were once tournament players themselves. Either that, or they know that they will be taken to task if the hole locations are ridiculous.

Another example of unfairness would be a pin cut on a crown so severe that only a miraculous chip or putt will stay on the crown. I guess what I'm looking for is to be rewarded for a very good shot. If 100 scratch golfers play a hole, and only 3 are able to get a chip shot to stop within 20 feet of a pin due to the location of the pin, then that's a problem in my book.

Another example would be a forced carry of anything more than 240 to 250 yards in a pro or top amateur tournament. I believe that to be unfair and contrary to the spirit of the game.

Again, all these examples are exceedingly rare due to the reasons laid out in my second paragraph.

[David Ober]

Lest any of you think I'm a whiner on the golf course: I couldn't possibly be more of an "own it" player when I'm playing serious tournament golf. I play shot-by-shot, and I NEVER blame the golf course or the conditions for my poor play. I sometimes will blame my BACK, but that's a different story. ;-)

If I were ever to six putt on a hole, my response in the clubhouse would be: "I should have made the first or second putt." However, I would probably let the tournament committee know that I did not care for their hole location that day, and I would explain to them why.

[Jim Nugent]

David, your examples make sense, though I personally have never encountered pins like that.  My experience is limited, for sure.  

Still trying to get a sense for what Kite meant.  Would help if he had given us examples of courses that are not fair.  

[TEPaul]

Look at some thought provoking examples of holes or set-ups that may be considered by some, even the world's best players, to be too difficult to be fair.

How about the Road Hole that curiously seems to maintain such respect world-wide as on of the greatest holes despite it seemingly unfair difficulty. How about it's approach shot? Is it unfair? Even a golfer of the class of Woods apparently refused to even try for that par 4 green in two during his 2000 Open win in a run-away. In retrospect he said he was very happy he played that hole three over for the tournament (three bogies and a par).

Is the Road Hole too difficult to be considered fair or is the hole just one of those rare examples of par not mattering on it and the deal being to simply minimize wasting strokes.

How about the 7th at Shinnecock during the 2004 Open? Was that too difficult to be considered fair?

There's no question in my mind that a player thinking well and executing like Goosen probably said to himself that he could definitely get to the next tee with no worse than bogie on that hole. Others probably let that hole get to them when they were on it and get to them when they were past it.

Are those two examples of too difficult to be considered fair?

How about the par 5 hole at TOC that Bob Jones came to play his second shot left and perhaps a little long of the green to make his third shot easier even if he knew he was capable of reaching the green in two but at what risk?

Holes like that a rare in today's architecture's but somehow they seem to have passed the test of time.

[Chris Kane]

I found Carnoustie to be very fair and very difficult.  A good shot is rewarded, while a bad shot is severely punished.  I can't say I'm desperate to go back for another game.

[BCrosby]

What word or phrase would you have him use to describe the situation then? After all, words serve human beings, not the other way around.

David: This is what I said above that Kite should have said:

"What Kite should have said is that Oakmont is difficult, but not too difficult. That is coherent. And what I think he actually meant."

What I mean by that is: When a golfer like Tom Kite says that Oakmont is "tough but fair," a sizeable portion of the golfing public (including myself) understands precisely what he is saying. He employed a term that has entered the golfing vernacular, and there is nothing you can do about that save resorting to pedantry. The fact that you choose not to understand it doesn't strip his sentence of its meaning to others.

David: Pedant that I am, I would suggest that neither Kite, nor you nor others who use "fair" in that way are forming sentences that have much meaning.

For example, what does the sentence "This catcher's mitt is unfair." mean?

A hole -- or the committee that sets up the hole, if you prefer -- is "unfair" when it elevates luck far above skill for the majority of players playing the hole.

David: Unfair to whom exactly? Aren't all players playing the same hole?

A golf course is "unfair" when it has several such holes, or even one hole where the ratio of luck to skill is so out of whack that wild disparities in putts occur from a sizable portion of the players.

David: You aren't talking about "fairness". What you are talking about is how hard it is to score well on the course. That's what you and others mean when you use "unfair" that way. The rub is that the course owes you nothing. It can't owe you anything. Golf courses aren't the kind of thing that is capable of owing you anything. It's just an inanimate thing. Things don't owe people. Only people owe people.

That's my definition. I bet you that Kite's is pretty similar.

David: Yes, that is your definition. And it's not very good.

Bob

P.S. Sorry the above is so hard to read. How do you change text color a la Mucci?

[Ken Moum]

Even if Kite had said "it's difficult but not too difficult", does that make it mean something?  I'd still be asking "too difficult for what?".  I'd like him to say: "it's difficult but not so difficult that ..." and go on to explain what sort of things happen when a course gets more difficult than whatever notion he has of an appropriate level of difficulty.  Then we'd actually understand what he meant.

This thread feels like a religious war to me, so I'll leave it at that.

It DOES feel like a religious war. LOL!

Keep in mind, though, that I was only responding to the dogmatic first reply to the OP. I have no problem with anyone thinking that a hole can't be "unfair." I do, however, have a problem with people who feel the need to subtly belittle those of a different mind on the subject.

I think we'd all be better off if we stopped using the term unfair and began to describe such things as unreasonable.

For instance, it's unreasonable to ask golfers to play to 15-yard fairways surrounded by knee-high grass as there's no one on earth with the skill to consistently hit them.

It is equally unreasonable to place a hole where nothing a golfer does can make the ball stop within 8 feet of the cup.

But when pros and top-level ams use the word fair, in my experience, they too often are referring to an overall demand for proportional punishment for misplayed shots.

That, IMHO, is why they sometimes use it to describe centerline bunkers, and greens that are too firm to hold a wedge shot.

Neither of those situations are unreasonable, if there's a valid way to play the hole and avoid the problem.

But if, for instance, a pro hits a "perfect" shot that lands on the green 20 feet short of the hole, ends up over the green in tall grass and makes a double, he might well call it unfair.

However, if he could have bounced the ball on the green and rolled up to the hole, his shot wasn't perfect, no matter how perfectly he executed his imperfect plan.

I have stopped using the word fair entirely to describe golf courses. I find the 28-yard fairways with thick rye/fescue rough, where I currently play to be unreasonable for member play, but some of the better players who have influence have become convinced that they required narrowing by 10 yards over the past two seasons, and that's what we're left with.

Ken

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