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Chris_Clouser

Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« on: June 03, 2007, 01:38:20 PM »
Continuing with the series of Indiana golf courses.  This time we venture a little north.

Warren Golf Course
South Bend, Indiana

Touchdown Jesus, golden domes and Knute Rockne are the things that most people associate with Notre Dame athletics.  And make no mistake about it, football is king at the private Catholic institute of higher education location on the outskirts of South Bend, Indiana.  Even with that, the university recognizes the importance of having other top-flight facilities around the campus other than the famed Notre Dame stadium, home of the several time national champions, and the Joyce Center, where the men’s and women’s basketball teams ply their trade.  This excellence in academic facilities extends to the golf course as well.  The Warren Golf Course is widely recognized as one of the top courses in the state and has received national recognition.
   The routing of the course is delightful with several small loops that run out and back to the clubhouse, with each nine running over the more exciting terrain on the west end of the site at some point.  Coore and Crenshaw also saved the more dramatic elevation changes for the finish of the round so as not to take away from the remainder of the course and to end on the best note.  It is a fine exhibition of scholarly and clever design.  
   Along with this magnificient style of routing, the designers also referred back to their youth with old-fashioned green complexes that remind one of the Perry Maxwell courses that Coore and Crenshaw played earlier in their lives.  Every green slopes from back to front and features a semi-false front.  Scalloped edges around the green accent the internal contours of small and large humps similar to the famed “Maxwell rolls” developed in the first half of the twentieth century by the American architect.  All day the player could be misreading putts because of the deceptive works of art.  

The opening hole on the course.


   The bunkering on the course is also very reminiscent of the ragged edges used by the famed architects of the “golden age” of architecture.  A unique take on the larger waste area bunkers is the number of bunker clusters composed of smaller and less intimidating sand features.  But they have just as much bite as the larger versions, perhaps even more when one considers the thick rough that lies between each trap.  The club has only added to this by adding hazards on several holes.  That gets to the final point when one discusses the course.  It is as difficult as any course you will find among the Indiana public courses.  And this applies if it is played from the tips or the upper markers.

Holes of note:

Hole 2 – 462 yards – The rolling fairway runs with the dogleg from left to right.  A wide fairway allows the player to swing away on the tee shot.  A bunker some sixty yards short of the green hides the gap beyond for anyone on the right side of the fairway.  The left side provides a clear view of the entire hole but adds length.  The green has a slight false front, like most of the holes, and a steep slope from back to front.  

The view from the right side towards the green.


Hole 3 – 410 yards – The hole runs straightaway with the best angle really coming from the left side so the pond is less in play.  A small plateau exists near the newly added bunker on that same side.  The rest of the fairway runs slightly towards the pond and creates a slightly uneven lie.

The view from the third green to the fourth over the pond.


Hole 4 – 145 yards – The first par three on the course is a very short one by modern standards and brings back into play this classic style of hole.  The green is protected on three sides by some of the deepest bunkers on the course.  The green has contouring that is clearly visible from the tee, which never bodes well for the less than accurate ball, in the form of two large rolls.  It is at this point that one really begins to get the feeling that they might be on an old-style Perry Maxwell course like Hillcrest or Muskogee.  

The view from the tee.


Hole 5 – 518 yards – The only three-shotter on the front.  It is most notable for the slightly horseshoe shaped green and the bunker in the center front.  Again the designers are pulling from a traditional concept used by a golden-age designer.  

The approach into the green


Hole 7 – 406 yards – From the tee the player must devise a way to get around the center line bunker that was recently put in by the club.  The fairway is a bit wider to the right and thus increasing the length of this right to left dogleg that is presented beautifully from the tee with the green in the distance.

View from the tee with the center line bunker in play.  I wonder if they ever thought of removing the two trees to the left and putting a bunker on that side instead...


Hole 10 – 495 yards – A wonderful short par five that runs down hill with the fairway running from left to right for the longer hitters and creating a better angle into the green.  The landing area short of the green is split diagonally by a stream and tempts the player to try and go for the target.  A great risk-reward hole.

Looking across the stream short of the 10th green


Hole 16 – 345 yards – A world-class short par four that is not drivable but presents many options to the player.  A creek runs across the fairway with the longer carry being out to the right.  The left side of the hole is protected by a series of bunkers that run up to the green in a stair like pattern.  The right side is protected by a solitary bunker directly in front of the middle of the green.  This bunker caused some serious damage in our group.  What can not be stressed enough is how much this hole runs downhill from the tee and then back uphill to the green.

From the tee

The approach

The side of the green


Hole 17 – 565 yards – Another stunner of a hole.  The fairway doglegs from right to left along with the terrain running this way as one looks on from the elevated tee to the severely down hill fairway below.  The drive seems to fly forever off of this tee if struck well.  The second must run back up hill to the skyline green in the distance.  Two bunkers border the fairway like sentinels, but really should only come into play if the first shot is poorly struck.  The greenside bunker on the left is the deepest on the course and is to be avoided.  I speak from experience.  

View from the elevated tee


Hole 18 – 455 yards – The last hole features another elevated tee shot.  The options from the tee are to carry the creek that crosses the hole or lay up and resign yourself to playing the hole as a three shotter.  A solid tee shot leaves a long-iron into the green.  Another tough green awaits.  

The final tee with the creek crossing the fairway.


   This finish is one of the best in the state, especially among public courses.  Throughout the course there are glimpses of Ross, Mackenzie, Tillinghast and Maxwell.  It provides a really old-style feel.  In our round there were only two things that I noticed that could be a possible knock against the Warren Course.  The course is being tightened as the rough was being grown in by a yard or two on each side on every hole.  There also appeared to be some problems with poa on the greens which only affected the entrances with what we experienced in our round.  But on the whole this should be one of the highlights of any trip to northern Indiana and one of the top courses in the state among the public venues.  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 02:25:55 PM »
I drove out to take a look at the Warren Course with the full intention of playing.  I didn't.  The presentation of the course maintenance made me realize that it would be a quaint course to play with friends but was not worth a trip around alone.  I believe I would enjoy the nine hole course under the dome more just for the scenery.  I think this picture captures my feelings pretty well.



RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 03:46:50 PM »
I like the fifth green with the pot bunker. Are comparison's made to it and the Road Hole?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 05:00:45 PM »
The presentation of the course maintenance made me realize that it would be a quaint course to play with friends but was not worth a trip around alone.  

Chris, thanks for the pics.  Looks like it's worth a trip around to me.  

John,

Are you serious or are you just making a crack about the garbage can?

As I'm interested in making the trip out from Chicago to South Bend to play the course, and since you've seen it and I haven't, I'm interested to know if you truly drove out there and then said "fergeddit" just based on looking at the first hole.  So what if the trees are a little scraggly.  Didn't Sam Snead say "What's that abandoned golf course?" upon first seeing TOC, and then end up loving the course?  

 "The presentation of the course maintenance"  What exactly are you referring to ?  

Thanks for your anticipated openly hostile and sarcastic reply  :D
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 06:13:58 PM by Eric_Terhorst »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 06:50:37 PM »
Eric,

Make the trip, you'll enjoy the golf course.

I never quite understood the routing in the context of the location of the clubhouse, and how that in turn affected the routing.

I believe it may have had something to do with a grandfathered building and construction issues, but, I'd like someone more familiar with the situation to provide the details.

JakaB,

A woman, in an old age home, picks up the phone, ringing in her room.

She says, "hello"

The caller, an obscene caller, says,
"I'm going to come to your room and rip all your clothes off of you, I'm going to throw you down on the bed, I'm going to ___ you, and ____ you and ___ you, because I know that's what you want you ___-.  

The woman says, " you can tell all of that from a "hello" ?"


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2007, 09:36:20 PM »
The Warren is a really classy course that I hope to get back and play again before too long.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2007, 10:05:45 PM »
To all that questioned,

I simply got out of my car with my clubs and walked toward the clubhouse.  On my way I stopped at the first tee, the practice green, the tenth tee and two greens most probably 9 and 18.  I surveyed each and weighed my options.  I thought I had seen it all before and was faced with playing people that I did not know and and looked to have zero redeeming qualities as golfers.  I only play with people who I want to play with when I want to play.  I think I gave the course a fair shot.  As I sit here today I think that if the parking was closer to the clubhouse I would have paid quickly enough to find myself on the course.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2007, 10:12:53 PM »
JakaB,

I've met a lot terrific people by being paired with them on the first tee.  Some are now friends of mine for over 30 years.

Just last week I was introduced to three people I never met before.  We had a great day, enjoyed the golf and the company.

You can't judge a book by it's cover or know everything you need to know about someone/something by a simple "hello"

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2007, 10:24:27 PM »
JakaB,

I've met a lot terrific people by being paired with them on the first tee.  Some are now friends of mine for over 30 years.

Just last week I was introduced to three people I never met before.  We had a great day, enjoyed the golf and the company.

You can't judge a book by it's cover or know everything you need to know about someone/something by a simple "hello"

Patrick,

So have I...I have spent a lifetime joining up as can be attested by many on this site.  I was just telling my wife and son at lunch that I should have been an anthropologist because of my uncanny ability to know people before I have met them.  My son replied in all of his 12 years that I would end up drunk one night and write a book that landed me in jail.  We all laughed and laughed.

I didn't say the people had no redeeming qualities as people, I said as golfers.  It was hot, the course did not wow me after a fair observation period and instead of golfing I spent the afternoon lighting a candle at the grotto with my family.  I am sure you have made many of the same decisions in your life and am happy for it.  
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 10:26:22 PM by John Kavanaugh »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2007, 10:26:07 PM »
Thanks Chris, You forgot to note that ND tradition of losing bowl games. The most recent loss was a real butt kicking applied by my LSU Tigers to the generally under acheiving Irish. As they say too much TV exposure just gives them more opportunities to show how good their athletes are and how very poor they are coached on D.

believe they have lost 9 bowl games in a row, and several have been by large margins

what a pity ;)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2007, 11:16:21 PM »
Mike,

Look at the picture of the first hole with the textbook strategy and hairy bunkers that have no place in the landscape.  This is what predictable modern architecture is to me.  I had just played Cuscowilla anI had seen it all before.  



John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2007, 11:40:01 PM »
Mike,

I was not paired with anyone.  I simply surveyed the range and putting green.  Seeing that there was no one of interest played a small part in my decision.  I think it is a fair comment for someone else to weigh in their consideration if they want to make the trip.  What is so hard to understand that I am saying it does not look like a course worth playing alone?  It is one of my standards...Hell, I'm a member of a few courses I would never play alone.  Like I said in one of the off topic posts that you refuse to delete for selfish reasons...I'm a pundit, not a junkie...Damn it.

btw...After seeing the pics side by side I am glad I spent the afternoon with my family.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 11:45:20 PM by John Kavanaugh »

PJKoenig

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 04:02:31 AM »
Amazing, amazing, AMAZING!

JakaB throws out this silliness just to rile you guys up and virtually every time, you suckers take the bait.  Some of the brightest people on this site, too.

Amazing...

Mike Sweeney

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 06:23:13 AM »
Amazing, amazing, AMAZING!

JakaB throws out this silliness just to rile you guys up and virtually every time, you suckers take the bait.  Some of the brightest people on this site, too.

Amazing...

Let's see Kavanaugh from the Midwest has a chip on his shoulder towards ND. Maybe this is just payback to the ND Admissions Office for sending him that "thin letter" 30 years ago.  ;) That damn Rudy movie could have been called "Jaka".  8)

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 07:10:17 AM »
Amazing, amazing, AMAZING!

JakaB throws out this silliness just to rile you guys up and virtually every time, you suckers take the bait.  Some of the brightest people on this site, too.

Amazing...

Let's see Kavanaugh from the Midwest has a chip on his shoulder towards ND. Maybe this is just payback to the ND Admissions Office for sending him that "thin letter" 30 years ago.  ;) That damn Rudy movie could have been called "Jaka".  8)

Mike,

I love Notre Dame.  This was last summer when my daughter was attending classes.  My son has been at Auburn now for three years and I haven't played one of the Trails courses either.  The RTJ Trail appeals to me even less because I haven't even taken the time to visit a club house yet.

It looks to me that you guys are having trouble believing that someone could go to a C&C course, take a look around...and punt.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2007, 08:27:20 AM »
John,

I could see that if you had played a C&C course.  This was my first experience on one of their layouts so it was a must play.  I know that is almost heretical on this site.   ;D

To be honest I didn't have any huge epiphanies going around the course or get the feeling that it was an all-world experience.  It is a very nice course with some excellent strategic choices but, as Sean mentioned, the bunker clusters seemed to take away from the holes they were on.  I also wasn't too keen on the knee deep rough that in some instances was very close to the fairway resulting in lost time  looking for balls.  But to be fair our group got around in under 4 hours with plenty of time to spare.  

Something I was thinking about though was with the 16th hole.  I think the bunker cluster there is used to draw your attention towards the left side and away from the right side where a little more even lie can be had and only one bunker comes in play on the approach.  Even though it is a little longer to play to that side, with the hole being a short four it isn't really a penalty.  It is almost an anti-strategy thought process.  But then again, I may just be a little nuts.

To be honest, the best holes in my mind might have been 10 and 18 and there wasn't a bunker on either one.  There is plenty to be enjoyed at Warren, but without seeing another C&C course it would be hard to comment on the feeling of "been there, done that" which you mention.  But I did get a sense of deja vu which I allude to in the write-up.

 

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2007, 09:40:54 AM »
...and hairy bunkers that have no place in the landscape.  This is what predictable modern architecture is to me.

Mr. Kavanaugh, what kind of sand bunkers DO fit in to the landscape? I have my own ideas on what bunker shapes work best to my eye, but I don't know that any of them have any place in the landscape around South Bend...........
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

tlavin

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 09:41:53 AM »
I surely would have played, even if I wasn't "wowed" by what I saw from the first tee, but just from looking at the photographs, I would tend to agree that the course looks a little like "repeat" design on a pretty banal piece of property.  For all of the pissing and moaning that we read on this site about the predictability of Fazio's designs, these photographs arguably demonstrate that even the more inspired "minimalists" are capable of phoning it in.  Or maybe, just maybe, they were unable to overcome the limitations of the site.

I'm sure that this is unfair to do, judge a design from photographs, but simply on that basis, it looks like a bit of a yawner.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2007, 01:17:30 PM »
... I simply got out of my car with my clubs and walked toward the clubhouse.  On my way I stopped at the first tee, the practice green, the tenth tee and two greens most probably 9 and 18.  I surveyed each and weighed my options.  I thought I had seen it all before and was faced with playing people that I did not know and and looked to have zero redeeming qualities as golfers.  I only play with people who I want to play with when I want to play.  I think I gave the course a fair shot...

It was those golfers with the non-matching pull carts, wasn't it?

Tom

Andy Troeger

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2007, 01:50:05 PM »
Terry,
I would say that the lack of "wow" from the pictures has more to do with the site than the effort from Coore/Crenshaw. About a third of course is on property that has a creek and some movement, the rest is rather dull admittedly.

That said, the course does a remarkable job of remaining interesting with some decent variety. Its not the greatest course I've played, and its maybe the 2nd or 3rd best course in South Bend, but its darn good for what they had to work with. #10 is a fabulous short par five, and the finishing three holes are pretty darn good too.

Like Chris, I wish they would stop with the narrowing of fairways and allowing more and more of the heather to encroach on the fairways. My guess is that the reason for this is that the college guys were eating it up when there was sufficient width.

I have no issue with GD ranking it in the top 15 in the state.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2007, 02:03:47 PM »
... I simply got out of my car with my clubs and walked toward the clubhouse.  On my way I stopped at the first tee, the practice green, the tenth tee and two greens most probably 9 and 18.  I surveyed each and weighed my options.  I thought I had seen it all before and was faced with playing people that I did not know and and looked to have zero redeeming qualities as golfers.  I only play with people who I want to play with when I want to play.  I think I gave the course a fair shot...

It was those golfers with the non-matching pull carts, wasn't it?

Tom

I'm sorry to say that yes it was a factor along with the untucked button down shirts.  I'm sure they wouldn't have been thrilled to have a fat guy with a carry bag waddle up either.  That picture of Cuscowilla with the caddie and golfers is a more pleasing sight...It just is.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 02:04:24 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Brian Joines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2007, 06:18:12 PM »
I live about 5 minutes from the Warren course and have only played there 3 times. While I have always enjoyed my rounds there, I doubt I will get out there more than once a year. The conditioning can be really bad out and at $60 or $70 a pop, it's just not worth it.

Andy is right, the property is less than ideal. It's right on the Toll Road (I-80) and is a little cramped. I also find the playing corridors to be too small. The heather grows thick and tall there and is very much in play on about every hole. It is a miserable place to take a few of your hacker friends.

I was pretty suprised to see Golfweek has this rated as the #2 public course in Indiana!

John Kavanaugh

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2007, 06:27:54 PM »
I live about 5 minutes from the Warren course and have only played there 3 times. While I have always enjoyed my rounds there, I doubt I will get out there more than once a year. The conditioning can be really bad out and at $60 or $70 a pop, it's just not worth it.

Andy is right, the property is less than ideal. It's right on the Toll Road (I-80) and is a little cramped. I also find the playing corridors to be too small. The heather grows thick and tall there and is very much in play on about every hole. It is a miserable place to take a few of your hacker friends.

I was pretty suprised to see Golfweek has this rated as the #2 public course in Indiana!

I am feeling pretty good about myself right now.  I owe a thanks to all the people on this site that have helped me develope my punditious eye.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2007, 06:33:46 PM »
Brian Joines,

I felt as you did, that the rough was a little too penal.
I felt it needed thining out.

But, the golf course was interesting and enjoyable.

I had my doubts before playing the golf course, but, was glad that I did, and, I would recommend playing it to anyone in the area.

It's fun golf course.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 07:09:14 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

David Kelly

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Re:Warren Golf Course at Notre Dame (w/pics)
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2007, 07:10:29 PM »
Considering the entire front nine has about 5 feet in elevation change at the most I think C&C did a very good job in coming up with an interesting and fun golf course and I think it is a little better than it is being made out to be.

I think it is at the low end of C&C's oeuvre but that said I think it is still better than what most architects would have come up with for that site.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.