[John Kavanaugh]

If you had a membership completely composed of fine people and passionate golfers who for whatever reason averaged 110 every time they play, how would you design a course that could be a pleasure for the members.  Where would you distribute their strokes for the most enjoyment that would keep them off the Kanasta tables.  Heroic carries, wild putts, penalty strokes, bunker shots...where do you put the fun and keep the pace of play moving?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

It's already been built...multiple times.

It goes by names like The Old Course, NGLA, Cypress Point, Shinnecock Hills, Merion, et.al.

On each of these courses the average golfer will get beat up a bit...sometimes a lot, sometimes even shoot 110, but will relish the challenge on virtually each and every shot.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Why not name a course without so much history and status.  Sure they would enjoy hitting the hotel at the Road Hole...who wouldn't?  Have you ever hit a house, hotel or apartment building at a non-descript course...I don't see the fun in that at all.  I don't think you would build the barracks or parking lot along the right side of any fairway at this course.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

There are plenty of examples.

I haven't been there but I'm guessing from Mike Sweeney's pics of Sankaty Head that it would fit the bill.

I played a 6300 yard course this past weekend that would as well.   It was the kind of place where my playing partner hit a 320 yard drive on a 360 yard hole, but was so out of position from a strategic standpoint that he took a 6.

I'll write about that one more when I have some time.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

There are plenty of examples.

I haven't been there but I'm guessing from Mike Sweeney's pics of Sankaty Head that it would fit the bill.

I played a 6300 yard course this past weekend that would as well.   It was the kind of place where my playing partner hit a 320 yard drive on a 360 yard hole, but was so out of position from a strategic standpoint that he took a 6.

I'll write about that one more when I have some time.

Ok,  I like the idea of 360 yd par fours...Would that be your maximum length?

[Chris_Clouser]

John,

An excellent course that fits this example is the Muskogee Country Club in Oklahoma.  For that matter other courses like Hillcrest, Oakwood and even Dornick Hills would fit this.  I think you have to put in one or two mandatory carrries, a little quirk, some width to the fairways and avoid at all costs the knee deep hay like rough that seems to be popping up at courses all around the place these days.  

Heck, now that I think about it, a course right down the street from me fits that bill, Stony Creek in Noblesville.  Its a nice course in really good shape at a good price.  I think these types of courses are all over the place and very few people care whether they were designed by Donald Ross, Perry Maxwell or Fred Flinstone.  It doesn't matter to most people as long as they get a chance to go out and hit the ball and have a good time without feeling like they have been put through the wringer.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Are we saying that we should only make them consider options on tee shots once or twice a round?  Should the tee ball be the one opportunity where the 110 shooter can hit his favorite distance club?

[Mike Sweeney]

I haven't been there but I'm guessing from Mike Sweeney's pics of Sankaty Head that it would fit the bill.

With the average members age of 81 (we were told), it better!

With the Eiffel Tower being the closest thing to block the wind at that end of the island, wind provided all the options and shots that you can imagine.

[Bill Shamleffer]

John,

What about the East course at Norwood Country Club?  My brother used to have a membership at Norwood and we usually played the West course.  But on a couple of occasions we did play the East course.  It can still be fun for a good player, but not too difficult for a 110 shooter.

An even better example is the Hawthorne 9 at Forest Park.  This is the portion of Forest Park which used to be the old nine-hole course.  The old course was very very easy, but very boring and uninteresting for even a decent golfer.  I think the new Hawthorne 9, does make for at least an interesting nine holes, while still being not overwhelming for the lesser golfer.

This nine holer is only 2922 from the back tees, but it includes a 299 yard par 4.  The two par 5s are 493 and 481.  Also there is some good bunkering to make things interesting.  The course is not very tight and trees are only an issue on one side of a few holes along the north border of the course.  The greens were slightly pushed up, but did not include any false fronts and the greens did not include any edges rolling downward.

A good player would not want to play this course on a regular basis, but a 110 shooter can enjoy this course and possibly improve on this course if that 110 shooter wishes to improve.  I played this course with a friend who used to play regularly in high school but now plays only about once a year.  This person would probably not enjoy a day at Gateway National or Annbrier, but we both enjoyed nine on the Hawthorn 9 at Forest Park.

[Peter Pallotta]

John
I think there's two ways to go.

One is to design and build the course and leave the bunkering until the very end, when I'd send out a small child (and his dog) with a bag of coloured rocks and tell him to walk/run the entire course, dropping a rock whenever he felt like it; and then I'd go out after him and hand-dig a bunker wherever I found a coloured rock, with some ending up being very shallow bunkers and others quite deep, depending on what time of day I got to them and how tired I was.

The other way is to design and build the course and leave the bunkering until the very end, and then stop.  

Depending on the site, I think I might be happier with the second approach.  

Peter

 

[Kirk Gill]

I think a lot of 110 shooters like the same things about golf that better players do. Designers create a lot of courses that the 110 shooter can enjoy, if they're willing to play from the forward tees. If you want to specifically cater to that player, then just take a few common design elements off the table - knee deep "natural grass areas," water that runs the length of a fairway, forced carries. Keep the bunkers closer to the line of play, and don't sit 'em out in the  boonies to punish the worst drives. But leave in the stong fairway and green contours, etc. Nobody loves a completely vanilla course, even those whose game would seemingly fit best there.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think it is strange that you would want the bunkers close to the line of play.  I thought it would be fun to put a water hazard left and a single pot bunker way, way right.  This would only punish the well struck push fade...It would be entertaining as hell.

[Kirk Gill]

This would only punish the well struck push fade...It would be entertaining as hell.

Just not on every hole.............but you bring up a great point. How many holes are out there that properly reward the well-struck push fade?  

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I always thought Lahinch was a great course for everybody.  There are some greens on plateaus, but others in bowls.  There are a couple of par-4's only great players can reach in two, but a lot of shortish ones for balance.  There are bunkers at many different distances from the tee, but the topography is more of a challenge for tee balls than the bunkering is.  But, most importantly of all, there aren't any death or glory shots ... you can always bounce your 4-wood into the green if you hit it just right, whether you're 130 yards out or 270.

(Of course, that was before they recently "restored" the course and lengthened some holes and built a par-3 where few can hold the green in the normal windy conditions.)

[Jim Bearden]

I thought from the title you were talking about Gitmo.

[Kalen Braley]

Barney,

This is a simple one.  Find a nice emtpy piece of land, plow it under to be completely flat.  Then put in 18 tee boxes and 18 greens and have wall to wall fairway height grass and you are good to go. Don't worry about pesky bunkers or other hazards.

If someone is shooting 110, as has been said, they are stuggling hard enough just to hit the ball straight.  Why confuse them with architectual quandries that they will no doubt not appreciate.  Save the good stuff for the good golfers.  

[Kirk Gill]

Kalen, that place would only do business if the green fees were $5. Given current land costs, etc., probably not feasible. It would be nice to have such an inexpensive place for learning, but it doesn't look to me like anyone is building such a thing...........

[SL_Solow]

Kirk, I think your sarcasm meter was turned off when you posted your latest reply.  Noone was really suggesting a course of that nature should be built.

[Garland Bayley]

...
If someone is shooting 110, as has been said, they are stuggling hard enough just to hit the ball straight. ...

Where do you arrogant SOBs get this BS?

[Chris_Clouser]

John,

I was talking about where they don't have an option but to carry a pond or a creek or some other obstacle.  I think you should have several holes where you have a preferred line over a bunker, but give them enough room to the other side if they don't want to and give them a less than ideal approach angle.  Pretty simple strategic golf.  You'd be amazed how the simple things seemed to satisfy the most.  

[John_Cullum]

Sorry Garland, but if they are hitting the ball down the middle and double bogeying every hole, they just need to move up a couple of tees

[Garland Bayley]

To answer the question posed in the title to this thread let's just say that Baxter Spann doesn't seem to know how to, whereas Gil Hanse does. If I recall correctly, even John K liked Gil's course that could be an internment facility for 110 shooters.

[Kalen Braley]

...
If someone is shooting 110, as has been said, they are stuggling hard enough just to hit the ball straight. ...

Where do you arrogant SOBs get this BS?

Garland,

Obviously the original post was done in sarcasm.

That being said in all seriousness.  I have seen far far more players who shoot in that range that spray the ball everywhere, more so than the 80 yr old man dinking his 3 wood 110 yards up the fairway..

So while my orginal post was extreme, I still stand by my statment that people shooting 110 + on a regular basis should stick to easier layouts...but thats just my opinion.  Of course if you have money/connections/access then none of that applies....

[John_Cullum]

I think they might like Scotland Yards but Links at Lake Burnadette will be a little challenging for the long capper

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Garland, but if they are hitting the ball down the middle and double bogeying every hole, they just need to move up a couple of tees

Spoken like a true low handicapper that is clueless as to the problems of the 110 shooter.

Have you guys ever noticed that the two shots that seem to go closest to the intended line are grounders and pop ups?

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