[Matt_Ward]

In re-reading "The Life and Work of Dr. Alister Mackenzie by Doak / Scott / Haddock, I was really fascinated by the info that outlined how the good Doctor had intended for a creative championship tee for the 18th.

On page 119 of the book -- it spells out how a tee was to be placed 50 yards to the right of the present 17th green -- in the water and nestled on top of a rock. Very creatice indeed. There were even plans and the $$ to pay for the creation of a suspension bridge to access it. The idea was abandoned primarily because of the probabilty of the ocean causing more future issues with rough seas and the like.

I'd be interested to know if such a tee would have been in line with players as they approached the entrance to the 17th green and what the total length of the 18th hole would have been?

No doubt, if such a hole had ever been created the entire dimension of what the 18th hole at CP is about would forever have been changed.

I was quite impressed that the good Doctor had even contemplated such a bold move. Too bad the club dropped it.

One last thing -- possibly Tom Doak and / or others would know -- if the back tee had been added what would the total yardage for the hole be -- and would the hole be less of a dod-leg than it is today?

Thanks ...

[Mike Benham]

I spy two rock formations that could be the location of the tee.  I don't know how these recent photos compare to 75 years ago as Mother Nature may have altered the rocks.

It looks like in either of the two possibilities that the tee balls would be approximately on the same line as the existing teeing location.  I would venture to guess that the rock on the left would be the logical choice as it does soften the dogleg slightly and stays clear of the 17th green.  See Exhibit A.




The link below connects to view of the CPC 17/18 tees from the California Coastal Records project.

CPC 18 Tee


Using Google Earth, I measure the potential hole at 410 yards (green dot tee box), 275 yards to get to the corner and a treeless clear shot of 135 yards uphill.

The green/yellow tee box is about 435 yards which makes the drive to the corner at about 300 yards.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think it would be one of the really cool teee locations on earth. However I still think the landing area and flight lines make for a unusual and questionable hole. Some trees would need to come down to make it a world class hole from the rocks.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I don't see the locatin you outlined as the one mentioned in the book. It was indicated the tee box would be to the right of the 17th as you played the hole.

That's why I questioned the situation of a possible criss cross with people playing the 17th as others tee off at #18.

One other thing -- the diagram you provided would locate the tee box in the line of fire with the parking lot for the state park that abuts the course. Likely the parking area was not there when the course was created. I'd be interested in knowing if the course ever owned that property and the areas adjacent to it.

[Pat Howard]

Matt,

The rock that Mike indicated with the yellow dot was indeed the tee location that was considered with a suspension bridge linking it to the mainland. It does not interfere with the 17th hole, but you are correct in that it was scrapped because of concern that winter storms and high waves could really cause damage to it.

As to who owned the land that the parking lot now occupies, I have no idea! But what a great tee shot it would have been.

I've only played the course once, but looking back to that rock after the caddies pointed it out I remember it being approx. 75 yards farther back.

BTW- Those California Costal Records photo's are incredible once you click on them and super-size 'em!

[Bob_Huntley]

Matt,



As to who owned the land that the parking lot now occupies, I have no idea! But what a great tee shot it would have been.

Sam Morse owned through the aegis of his company.

Bob

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt those are the locations which I have always been told were the propossed location of the 18th tee. I have never been able to find anything that looked like it could have been a tee where you are describing. I have spent at least 10 non golfing hours sitting right there with drink in hand thinking of what a beautiful world we live in.

[Garland Bayley]

Next question. If CPC were to put in the suspension bridge, buy the parking lot, and covert to grass, then would they hands down be #1 in the world?

[Bob_Huntley]

Next question. If CPC were to put in the suspension bridge, buy the parking lot, and covert to grass, then would they hands down be #1 in the world?

Garland,

And have the most costly and onerous liability policy to boot.

Bob

[Mike Hendren]

In my opinion, the length of the hole is not its downfall.  The suspension bridge would be a novelty that might detract from the course, not enhance it.

MIke

[Michael Christensen]

that tee would be allowed for everyone except people who have a duck hook shot....this looks like the line of fire I saw during the reverse course play at St Andrews on #7

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do not think it would significantly change to way the world looks at the course at all. The tee shot on 18 has problems which would not be addressed by this modification which oh by the way will never occur.

[Sean_Tully]

Matt

Something that I found that changes the thinking on CP is who was behind the idea of the tee on the rocks? The idea is predated to before Mackenzie's role there. It looks to be Raynor's idea as one looks at the following picture and the time frame it was published. If the picture was published in the Dec. 1925 issue than it would have to have been taken a period of time prior to make it into the magazine. I do not know the turn around for this, but maybe someone else can give a modern reference. Basically, what the picture and its caption state is that this was done in the late summer --- early fall of 1925, while Raynor was still alive and involved in the project.

Alot of things can be read into this....
was it the club that pushed the idea
its raynors 18th hole and and its all his fault
Mackenzie used Raynor's hole design for the 18th
two of the better architects settled on the 18th hole as is

Anyway, I'm sure some of you have your own ideas on this subject!

Heres the pic....



Of course no mention of the architects name!!!


Tully

[Garland Bayley]

Next question. If CPC were to put in the suspension bridge, buy the parking lot, and covert to grass, then would they hands down be #1 in the world?

Garland,

And have the most costly and onerous liability policy to boot.

Bob

Don't blame that on me! I'm not a lawyer.  

Just kidding folks. Please no flames.

Back in the olden days there used to be a wooden suspension bridge out to much smaller rocks off the coast at Oceanside, OR. I think they depended on people using common sense. Perhaps a commodity more rare and precious these days.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

According to Lewis Lapham, MacKenzie moved the green-site back, further up the hill after plans for the rock island tee were abandoned. It just simply proved too costly to build the bridge and in retrospect, it may have even broke the club in 1932 for such a arduous and costly task.  

You can see images of the bridge in Geoff's Cypress Point book.

[TEPaul]

It appears the reason the tee on #18 that was accessed by a suspension bridge was nixxed as well as the reason the 14th does not hug the coast-line was that Sam Morse was stricken by a sudden pang of social conscience and did not feel it was a good thing to cut off the public's access and view access in those areas. This clearly pissed off Alister because he was apparently a man who did not possess a "social conscience", despite the fact that he felt if President Roosevelt would only adopt his military trench camouflage policy (The Boers) it would essentially end all wars and consequently save all Mankind.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am sure that California shoreline/public access debate was raging, even then.  I can see Alister being tee'd off about not being able to use another 100 feet of it, or so!

I think the cost angle was probably the biggest reason, though.  Or hey, maybe they were worried about speed of play!

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

What they were also apparently worried about was the suspension bridge would not withstand the ravages of Nature and they were probably right about that.

That reminds me of that slide show an architect put on at the initial Archipalooza at Bandon.

He showed a green in Japan that hung perilously out over the Ocean. The Ocean kept destroying it and the Japanese kept rebuilding it over and over and over again. By the last slide the architect said that green had cost something like $9 million dollars. Pretty efficient architectural/economic reasoning, don't you think?

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
The architect was Robin Nelson and the hole was in Guam I believe.
Neil

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom and Neil,

years ago, we had a project in Guam (never got off the ground) but we had to consider how high the waves and salt water splashed (this was before paspalum)

Its entirely possible that someone saw waves crashing over those rocks and realized that the turf couldn't survive with a constant misting of salt water.

[Matt_Ward]

According to the book by Doak and company -- the money from Morse was there to construct the bridge. The issue was abandoned for reasons dealing with the sheer violence of the ocean from time to time. Makes me wonder that such a hole would have added a good deal to the sheer majesty of CP since the current 18th is really a letdown and fails to inspire with the grand conclusion that so many other courses have.

No doubt Mackenzie was guided by the match-play mentality which often meant the 17th -- not the 18th would be the ultimate hole because so few matches would ever get to the final hole.

Nonetheless, if Morse did own the property that is now part of the state park which abuts the existing 18th tee -- I can't see why the 18th hole was not angled a bit further down where the park is located today.

[Mike Hendren]

Matt,

The bridge might have yielded an inferior hole.  The "first official routing plan" on page 37 of Geoff Shackleford's outstanding book Alister Mackenzie's Cypress Point Club depicts the tee on the rocks and an arrow-straight hole directly at the clubhouse that is listed at 350 yards.  

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Michael H:

Whether the bridge would have yielded an inferior hole is problematic at best.

What I and others can say with some degree of certainty is that the existing 18th is a poor closer to an other wise stellar layout. Demaret had it right indeed.

[Matthew Hunt]

There was a good thread about this last year.

[Tom Huckaby]

There was a good thread about this last year.

And the year before, and the year before that, and the year before that....

It has to be one of the top 10 most common topics on this site.

Most people do dislike the hole.

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