[Patrick_Mucci]

A course that I'm familiar with has instituted a policy of unique or highly competitive hole locations, (depending upon your perspective)

Some golfers have complained about their difficulty, others love them.

In a discussion on the policy another fellow and I agreed that they made you think about how best to approach, and miss the green, that you had to be thoughtful and creative, and if you weren't, you suffered the consequences.

Wouldn't placing hole locations near the perimeter or in unique locations at almost every golf course force more golfers to embrace the mental side of the game, the art of course management ?

And, wouldn't this save a good deal on wear and tear as the locations each day aren't remotely near each other ?

Should more clubs embrace this practice ?

[John Kirk]

Patrick,

I agree strongly, and enjoy it when my home course puts a few unusual and difficult pin positions out there.

Actually, at one of the clubs I regularly play (in southern California), they have been systematically eliminating some of the tougher pin positions, as members and their guests have been complaining.  That club is trying to eliminate the possibility of a four putt.  I noticed and expressed my disappointment.

Better to only use a couple unusual pins per day.  You're exactly right about the strategic ramifications of a difficult pin position; it sharpens your focus on the proper approach strategy.  You could argue that the tough pins have greater value for the more advanced player.

There it is, 1000th post.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Actually, at one of the clubs I regularly play (in southern California), they have been systematically eliminating some of the tougher pin positions, as members and their guests have been complaining.  That club is trying to eliminate the possibility of a four putt.  I noticed and expressed my disappointment.

There it is, 1000th post.

John,

Let me be the first to congratulate you!

My feeling, which I was about to post, is similar but I do feel that certain locations make the 4 putt likely, as opposed to possible, these are the positions to avoid, I believe.
I have 4 putted several times I'm afraid when neither the green or the pin position was the problem...

[Andrew Summerell]

Difficult pin positions that cater for smart play are no problem at all & should be encouraged.

I left myself 20 foot above the hole at the 6th at Newcastle on Friday. I didn’t ‘trickle’ my putt down the hill carefully enough & the ball rolled off the green, almost into a bunker. Instead of walking of the green with a 4, with the possibility of a 3, I walked off with a 6.

One of my playing partners thought it was unfair, but I didn’t play smart & I paid the consequences. My 6 was due to poor course management.

Course management is as much a valid part of golf as ball striking and should be tested equally.

[Mark_F]

Course management is as much a valid part of golf as ball striking and should be tested equally.

It's amazing, though, for how many people course management means choosing a particular side of the fairway to be on, and perhaps whether they mind being above the hole.

Consideration of what the ball may do when it lands, or whether it may be more wise to hit off the green and let a slope bring it back in, or whether it is better to be off the green and facing a more simple putt or chip from one direction rather than a short one over more imposing terrain aren't thought of as highly.

[Matt_Cohn]

Pat,

Do you think there's a cycle of too-tough golf courses, which creates the demand for too-simple pin positions, which then leads to even harder golf courses to make up for the expected easy pin placements?

State Golf Association raters,

Do course and slope ratings take into account whether a course typically sets up very tough or very easy pins? If not...that seems really unfair.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

Good question. I think it would cause low handicappers to think more and the rest of us, after a few instances of "negative feedback," to think less: aim for the center of the green every time.

Those who complain about difficulty are putting forth a self defeating argument. Or do they not want a traveling handicap?

Mark

[Jordan Wall]

Wouldn't placing hole locations near the perimeter or in unique locations at almost every golf course force more golfers to embrace the mental side of the game, the art of course management ?

Like this, Pat?

[TEPaul]

My club has just gotten into doing this. We do it about once a month and it's been termed "Tough Day".

I very much agree Patrick that it certainly does make golfers think about course management more.

My God, I can't believe I just said I agree with you. The very thought of such a preposterous thing is totally counter-intuitive.

[David_Madison]

Absolutely, totally, 100% right on. I'm not so sure that sticking cups close to edges makes the game all that harder for average players, but it sure helps if they think a little - - it gives them tons of room to the open side to miss and still be on the green or in an area where they have lots of green to work with. Harbour Town, when I last played it, had at least six or seven cups 8'-12' from an edge. Made the greens feel and play much larger. If a course has multi-tiered, ridged greens, often the toughest spots are near the middle, where the various pieces come together and everything is all twisted. Average players won't suffer too much, but better players will make lots more tap-in bogeys and disappointed pars when they thought birdie was in hand. For better players, getting real edgy probably has the most impact and interest with shorter approaches, when it's almost unmanly not to go pin hunting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Kirk & Lloyd Cole,

I'd disagree with you with respect to the 4 putt issue.

If a golfer has put himself into position to 4 putt, then he's misplayed his approach and/or recovery shot, and, there should be a penalty for that.

I"m not advocating holes cut into slopes where it becomes goofy golf, but solid tactical positions that have a greater degree of risk/reward associated with them.

Jordan Wall,

That looks exactly as I would imagine, terrific.
In fact, you could tuck it a little more.
To be reasonable, I think some weight has to be given to the value of the approach shot.

Matt Cohn,

Yes, I think courses can be overly difficult, and as a result, hole locations are benign.  I think that also relates to the mentality of the golfer and the decision to play from a given set of tees.

The course that I was referencing is about 6,650 yards from the tips, so it's not an overpowering golf course.
Mike Sweeney played there two weeks ago and loved it, although the pins were fairly benign that day.

I've noticed that the golfers with poor course management skills don't like the practice, whereas many, many, many golfers, irrespective of handicap, love it.  I think it might even favor the higher handicap who won't be hitting the greens in regulation.

And, with the rough lush and thick this spring, it makes missing the green on the short side a real challenge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the interesting side affects of the practice is the introduction of putts noone has ever seen before, and that's pretty neat on an old golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

We architects have a somewhat different take on this.  I like to see interesting hole locations on my courses, but I have also been made to look like a crazy designer by some young man who has cut a hole in an untenable spot.

I am not sure from your post if you are endorsing "tough day" as Tom Paul says, or simply asking for more variety.

The reason you see less of it nowadays is not due so much to the overall length and difficulty of modern courses, in my opinion, as much as a fear on the part of management (manager, pro, and superintendent) of doing anything that would upset the customers.  Which goes back to the lack of golfing IQ of many modern players, of course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I want to be clear in that I'm not endorsing impossible positions on slopes, crests, etc,. etc..

I think the key to the issue is the support of the club leadership.  Once that's firmly established, those complaining quickly realize that "this" is the field of play, and they can either deal with it or perish at their own hands.

There was a time when I could tell you, depending upon the day of the week, exactly where every pin would be.
That lack of diversity made for boring golf.

I like approaching new hole locations, ones I haven't seen before, recovering and putting to them as well.

Having played this golf course for 55 years it's spiced things up a bit, and, the bulk of the membership has enjoyed it as well, although, those losing their weekend matches don't seem to enjoy it as much as the rest of the membership.

It has definitely had an effect of planning your drive, approach and recoveries.  

Bottom line, it's added MORE FUN to the rounds.

[John Kirk]

John Kirk & Lloyd Cole,

I'd disagree with you with respect to the 4 putt issue.

If a golfer has put himself into position to 4 putt, then he's misplayed his approach and/or recovery shot, and, there should be a penalty for that.

Perhaps you misinterpreted my post.  The club was trying to avoid 4 putt greens, that it caused too much acrimony among members and their guests.  I don't like that, and expressed my disappointment that some of the more creative pin placements were taken out of the rotation.

Were you expecting a disagreement?  Sorry, I agree.

[Lloyd_Cole]

John Kirk & Lloyd Cole,

I'd disagree with you with respect to the 4 putt issue.

If a golfer has put himself into position to 4 putt, then he's misplayed his approach and/or recovery shot, and, there should be a penalty for that.

Perhaps you misinterpreted my post.  The club was trying to avoid 4 putt greens, that it caused too much acrimony among members and their guests.  I don't like that, and expressed my disappointment that some of the more creative pin placements were taken out of the rotation.

Were you expecting a disagreement?  Sorry, I agree.

Pat,

Sorry, I agree too. The only pin positions that I would argue likely to cause 4 putts are exactly the goofy ones you refer to. I don't think there are others, after that it is down to judgement and execution - neither of which I can rely upon 100%.

[John Kirk]

Sorry, we have an agreement disagreement.  I agree with Patrick that unusual and difficult, but not goofy, pin placements should be used regularly to add strategic interest and difficulty to the typical round of golf, even if this causes the occasional four putt.

It seems to me the most common scenario for a four putt is when a player has a medium to long uphill putt on a steeply sloped green, and blows it a few feet past the hole.  That's just being greedy, even though you're appropriately under the hole.  I suppose the other common mistake is leaving a steep downhill putt way short on your first putt.  Either way, the course shouldn't be set up specifically to avoid four putt episodes.

[TEPaul]

John Kirk:

If you actually agree with something Patrick said would you please have the decency to not admit it on here? It's bad for morale.

[John Kirk]

Yes, it's hard to maintain a healthy balance without consensus disagreement.  I apologize.

You can't stop him; you can only hope to contain him.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Everyone is entitled to my opinion  

[JESII]

TEP,

I have played Gulph Mills on "tough day", and that is not what Pat is talking about with this? Gulph Mills tough day last year was like scramble day at many clubs.


Pat,

This concept is great, and would be well received if, as you say, it is introduced from the top down...

[John Kirk]

JES II,

Tough pins and easy bunkers...the perfect day of golf.

 

[JESII]

perhaps...

better memory than me, I had to rack my brain for a minute or two...

[John Kirk]

Perhaps that previous exchange had a bigger impression on me, as it was shocking that anyone would dare disagree with my opinions.

[Terry Thornton]

that you had to be thoughtful and creative, and if you weren't, you suffered the consequences.

..........the art of course management

Patrick,
the most important part of playing golf in my opinion, and the surest avenue to a lifetime of enjoying the pursuit. I suspect you're only referring to a small minority of golfers though.
Many people I see on a course are interested, from tee to green, in keeping it on the short stuff, then when close enough aiming straight at the pin and continuing to do so until on the green. No apparent thought as to best places to approach from etc. I'll sometimes complain softly about a tee shot's result which may have gone to my non-preferred side of a fairway only to be told that it's fine because it's on the fairway. Playing last weekend with a relaitive he was very pleased with himself on one hole as he was much closer than me after 2 shots, what he didn't know was that his chance of getting down in 2 more was much much less than mine because of what remained to be done.

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