Colonial and the Horrible Horseshoe

« **on:** May 22, 2007, 07:24:35 PM »

With Colonial happening this week, I was interested in posing a question to all here. What is the toughest trio of holes that you have played in succession? I know after I played 3, 4 and 5 here, I can't think of a tougher stretch I've played. Long dogleg left, long and tough par 3 that plays into a slight wind and a long dogleg right that bends dangerously close to the Trinity river. 8, 9 and 10 at PB would be a close second. What was your toughest stretch of 3 holes? BTW, although tough, the Horrible Horseshoe is also a great stretch.

« **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:43:01 AM »

Bump. No takers?

« **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:46:34 AM »

The first three that come to mind are numbers 16-17-18 at Merion, especially from the new tees...even par for that stretch in the 2012 Open over the course of the week will gain you at least 4 on the field.

« **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:54:27 AM »

Two others I can think of.....
take your choice from Royal Troon....
either numbers 9-10-11
or
numbers 10-11-12

brutal holes even on a still day.

« **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:59:03 AM »

Shinnecock: 9,10,11
Carnoustie: 16,17,18
Jackson (TN) CC (maybe Langford?) 10,11,12

« **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:00:12 AM »

9,10,11 at Bethpage Black is very tough stretch, you better be bombing it off the tee if you are even thinking about playing those 3 in par figures . . .

-Ted

« **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:06:28 AM »

Ted,
you beat me to it, I was jsut about to say the same stretch.
I played there last week, from the tips...frigging brutal..that si one BIG golf course.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:11:34 AM »

David S:

The three holes at Colonial are solid when other Texas courses are compared. When you go nationwide -- they lose a good bit of their luster. They maintain attention simply due to the annual tournament IMHO.

Throw in 6,7 and 8 at PB and you have a combo of 5,3 and 4 pars that are a good ways beyond that of what you have at Colonial. Not even close.

« **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:12:02 AM »

Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on May 23, 2007, 11:06:28 AM

Ted,
you beat me to it, I was jsut about to say the same stretch.
I played there last week, from the tips...frigging brutal..that si one BIG golf course.

Michael,

That newish back tee on #9 is real hole-changer.
From that tee, I think #9 is tougher than #10 and or #11.
How was your round out there?
Were you driving the ball well?

-Ted

« **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:26:35 AM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 23, 2007, 11:11:34 AM

David S:

The three holes at Colonial are solid when other Texas courses are compared. When you go nationwide -- they lose a good bit of their luster. They maintain attention simply due to the annual tournament IMHO.

Throw in 6,7 and 8 at PB and you have a combo of 5,3 and 4 pars that are a good ways beyond that of what you have at Colonial. Not even close.

Matt, I agree that the holes you mention are solid at PB. But from a shotmaker's standpoint (and this doesn't describe me), 3-5 at Colonial require that the golfer be able to work the ball both ways to be successful on those holes, not to mention the whole course. If you can't play a hard controlled draw on 3 and a LONG fade on 5, you will not succeed. Too far on 5 and you go throught the fw and have no chance at the green. On a calm day, although wonderful, 7 is a pitch shot at PB. It's a much easier hole than 4 at Colonial. From the tips, 4 is 246 and usually has a little wind in your face in the afternoon. And you can't run the shot up. It's all carry. 3 at Colonial can tempt the long player to carry the trees on the left, but if you don't pull it off you're in real trouble. To reach the green in regulation, you have to hit a really long tee shot right to left.

« **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:34:28 AM »

David S:

I have heard for years about the 7th at PB being nothing more than a pitch shot when the wind isn't blowing.

Guess what -- the wind frequently blows and often blows quite hard. In addition, the sheer size of the green (lack thereof) is a bit more demanding than many might admit.

#6 at PB and #8 at PB are bulletproof -- beyond anything even remotely close to what you get at Colonial.

I don't doubt one needs to work the ball at those holes but with flat land -- and the site is DEAD FLAT -- that's not that tall an order for players at the high level.

Like I said -- I admit they are good holes FOR TEXAS. I can name plenty of three-hole combos that are beyond that but don't get much attention because they don't serve as annual reminders because of a PGA Tour event.

« **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:51:29 AM »

Olympic Lake's #3, 4 and 5 ... even more so in F&F conditions, up and down elevation changes ...

Heck, even 2, 3 and 4 would qualify ...

« **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:55:43 AM »

I gotta go with Carnoustie on this one as well. 16, 17, and 18 are as tough as you are going to get. PB is a close second with 8, 9, and 10. Merion is third.

« **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:58:30 AM »

Matt, I realize the wind blows frequently up there. I visit the Monterey Peninsula at least once a year. And yes, this makes the shot to 7 demanding. I love the hole. But if comparing a successive 3 hole stretch and this includes 6-8 at PB vs. Colonial's Horseshoe, I'm sorry, Colonial is tougher. There is no doubting the greatness of 8 at PB. It's one the greatest par 4's in the world. 6 at PB is a par 5 and is wonderful, but if you can hit a safe tee shot down the middle, you can play left and bail out and still have a shot at par. If comparing par 3 to par 3, The 4th at Colonial to the 7th at PB, PB needs wind to make it a fairer fight. Without it, from a difficulty standpoint, the 4th at Colonial is much tougher. With it, I still think Colonial's would edge it out in terms of difficulty. I agree 8 is a better hole than anything Colonial has to offer, but 5 is a pretty tough hole. Mr. Hogan certainly thought so.

I by no means am saying that Colonial's HH is the best stretch, I'm just citing it as a very tough stretch. I'm certain with your experience that you can cite tougher and better stretches than my limited experience. I just think for an average golfer, it's hard to hit a draw, a long all carry slightly elevated par 3 and a power fade over the course of 3 holes.

« **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2007, 12:02:05 PM »

Quote

9,10,11 at Bethpage Black is very tough stretch, you better be bombing it off the tee if you are even thinking about playing those 3 in par figures . . .

I think 12 is tougher than 9, so I'd go with 10,11 and 12.

« **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:13:09 PM »

David:

You say you visit PB once a year -- then with all due respect your eyes must be closed.

The 6th, 7th and 8th are world class combination holes. The emphasis on the word -- WORLD. I never said the holes at Colonial weren't good or that they were not challenging -- but frankly if you see those three holes beyond the ones I've mentioned then you have lost me in the area of credibility and architectural awareness.

#5 at Colonial is a wonderful hole -- although I think it's a bit overrated and much of the fanfare is tied to the annual PGA Tour event. It doesn't remotely SHINE the shoes of #8.

In regards to the two par-3 holes. The 7th at PB is a world class short hole. Keep this in mind you need to compare apples to apples. The long par-3 at Colonial is very good but it's not in the same league as other long par-3's that I can add throughout the USA -- never mind on the globe.Once can add the par-3 8th or 16th at Oamont -- the 3rd at Lake / Olympic, the 16th at CP, etc, etc.

When you talk about the par-5 6th at PB -- you missed the architectural elements that make the hole special. After a big tee shot long hitters have plenty to ponder. The blind second shot aspect only adds to the element when playing the hole. You also have a green perched in just the right spot to wreak havoc. No doubt birdies can be made -- so can the dreaded "others."

David, when you mention the "average golfer" there's no doubt they would be tested by the three-hole situation at Colonial. However, the "average golfer" would be tested by any number of golf holes I can name simply because they lack the requisite skills to play anything more than rudimentary shots.

You started this thread in asking for the toughest three-hole stretch of holes played. The reality is that in my portfolio of courses played I can name plenty which would be ahead of Colonial's trio. Tour exposure helps for visibility -- it doesn't automatically mean it's entirely accurate to say so.

P.S. As many have mentioned the combo of BB's 10th thru 12th -- I dare say once can also add the 15th thru 17th as well.

« **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:17:26 PM »

Quote from: David Miller on May 23, 2007, 12:02:05 PM

Quote
9,10,11 at Bethpage Black is very tough stretch, you better be bombing it off the tee if you are even thinking about playing those 3 in par figures . . .

I think 12 is tougher than 9, so I'd go with 10,11 and 12.

12 is tough too, good call. Have you played 9 from the newish back tee?

-Ted

« **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:29:42 PM »

Quote

Quote:
9,10,11 at Bethpage Black is very tough stretch, you better be bombing it off the tee if you are even thinking about playing those 3 in par figures . . .

I think 12 is tougher than 9, so I'd go with 10,11 and 12.

12 is tough too, good call. Have you played 9 from the newish back tee?

(As you can see, I don't yet know how to insert quotes properly)

I played the Black last summer from the back tees but don't know if I played the new tee on #9. Think it played about 420 yards. With the blind approach, I could indeed see how it would rival #12 in difficulty if they added 40 yards or so.

« **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:42:57 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 23, 2007, 02:13:09 PM

David:

You say you visit PB once a year -- then with all due respect your eyes must be closed.

NO, I SAID I VISIT THE MONTEREY PENINSULA EVERY YEAR. I'VE ONLY PLAYED PB ONCE, JUST LIKE I'VE PLAYED COLONIAL ONLY ONCE.

The 6th, 7th and 8th are world class combination holes. The emphasis on the word -- WORLD. I never said the holes at Colonial weren't good or that they were not challenging -- but frankly if you see those three holes beyond the ones I've mentioned then you have lost me in the area of credibility and architectural awarenes.

I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID THAT THEY WEREN'T GOOD (COLONIAL). AND I NEVER SAID THAT THEY WERE "BETTER". I SIMPLY STATED THAT IMHO, THEY ARE TOUGHER COLLECTIVELY THAN THE EXAMPLE YOU PRESENTED. NOW IF YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE 8,9 AND 10, THEN I THINK THAT WOULD BE A CLOSER COMPARISON OF "TOUGHNESS". I'M NOT COMPARING ARCHITECTURAL QUALITIES, I'M COMPARING THE DIFFICULTY.

#5 at Colonial is a wonderful hole -- although I think it's a bit overrated and much of the fanfare is tied to the annual PGA Tour event. It doesn't remotely SHINE the shoes of #8.

I BELIEVE I CONCEEDED THAT POINT IN MY PREVIOUS POST, MINUS THE SHOE SHINNING PART.

In regards to the two par-3 holes. The 7th at PB is a world class short hole. Keep this in mind you need to compare apples to apples. The long par-3 at Colonial is very good but it's not in the same league as other long par-3's that I can add throughout the USA -- never mind on the globe.Once can add the par-3 8th or 16th at Oamont -- the 3rd at Lake / Olympic, the 16th at CP, etc, etc.

I DIDN'T INTRODUCE THE 7TH, YOU DID. AND I DIDN'T KNOW WE WERE ALSO DISCUSSING ALL THE OTHER PAR 3'S THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, I THOUGHT WE WERE DISCUSSING THOSE 2. AND MATT, I KNOW FULL WELL YOU CAN PULL OUT A TON OF EXAMPLES THAT ARE TOUGHER AND BETTER THAN ANY I HAVE. I JUST BROUGHT COLONIAL UP BECAUSE OF IT BEING FEATURED THIS WEEK.

When you talk about the par-5 6th at PB -- you missed the architectural elements that make the hole special. After a big tee shot long hitters have plenty to ponder. The blind second shot aspect only adds to the element when playing the hole. You also have a green perched in just the right spot to wreak havoc. No doubt birdies can be made -- so can the dreaded "others."

I THINK 6TH IS A WONDERFUL HOLE WITH ALL KINDS OF STRATEGIC ELEMENTS, BUT IT IS A PAR 5 THAT IS 513 YDS. COMPARED TO THE 3RD AT COLONIAL THAT IS 476 YDS. FROM A DIFFICULTY STAND POINT, WHICH IS WHAT I ASKED WHEN I STARTED THIS THREAD, THE 3RD IS TOUGHER.

David, when you mention the "average golfer" there's no doubt they would be tested by the three-hole situation at Colonial. However, the "average golfer" would be tested by any number of golf holes I can name simply because they lack the requisite skills to play anything more than rudimentary shots.

AGAIN MATT, I KNOW YOU CAN NAME A TON, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING SOME OF YOUR EXPERIENCES. FAR BE IT FROM ME TO CHALLENGE YOUR VAST EXPERTISE. I WASN'T IMPLYING THAT AT ALL.

You started this thread in asking for the toughest three-hole stretch of holes played. The reality is that in my portfolio of courses played I can name plenty which would be ahead of Colonial's trio. Tour exposure helps for visibility -- it doesn't automatically mean it's entirely accurate to say so.

I'M SURE YOU CAN AND I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING THEM. THIS WAS MY TOUGHEST TRIO I'VE COME ACROSS IN MY MEAGER EXPERIENCE WHICH I HOPE TO ADD TO IN THE FUTURE. AND IT'S GOT NOTHING TO WITH IT BEING ON THE PGA TOUR FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. COLONIAL IS A TOP 100 COURSE. WHETHER THAT'S JUSTIFIED, I'M NOT QUALIFIED TO SAY.

P.S. As many have mentioned the combo of BB's 10th thru 12th -- I dare say once can also add the 15th thru 17th as well.

WOULDN'T KNOW. I HAVEN'T HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF PLAYING THERE. I HOPE TO IN THE FUTURE.

« **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2007, 03:26:09 PM »

David S:

The issue here is one of perspective and variety in terms of what you have personally experienced.

When you started this thread -- you opined on the three holes at Colonial being the toughest. What might have been helpful is some sort of qualifier that would ID just how many top tier courses you have actually played? Thereby this would place in some sort of context YOUR experiences with such courses.

Like I said before -- I've played the holes at Colonial you mentioned and agree they are good. But, what you fail to acknowledge, is how TV exposure has a tendency to elevate such holes whether they be at Colonial or elsewhere.

In my experiences I would not rate Colonial among my personal top 100 courses. It is a fine golf course and I salute the design of John Brademus.

I understand full well the distinction between architectural elements and toughness. I still stand with the placement of 6 thru 8 at PB. Place the average golfer -- as you stated originally -- on such holes and they will be most fortunate to get through them in three-over par. Try to also grasp this -- a short par-3 like the 7th at PB is far more demanding than the yardage indicates -- you have played PB once -- I've played it about a dozen times over a span of 30 years. The green size -- lack thereof -- can make for a much more demanding situation than many, including you, realize.

« **Reply #20 on:** May 23, 2007, 03:54:47 PM »

When it comes to PB, the tough stretch is 8-9-10 anyway certainly not 6-7-8...after all 6 and 7 are not tough at all really...but 8-9-10 brytallly tough...Crenshaw would probably give that 3 hole stretch as his answer to this question...as that is what he told me whilst we were playing them last year.

« **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:33:04 PM »

Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on May 23, 2007, 03:54:47 PM

When it comes to PB, the tough stretch is 8-9-10 anyway certainly not 6-7-8...after all 6 and 7 are not tough at all really...but 8-9-10 brytallly tough...Crenshaw would probably give that 3 hole stretch as his answer to this question...as that is what he told me whilst we were playing them last year.

Michael,

I was thinking the same thing as this thread was progressing, but figured this stretch was not in the discussion as they are all par 4's....

« **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2007, 05:46:40 PM »

Kalen, any stretch qualifies as long as the holes are in succession. 8,9 and 10 are certain canidates.

How about 16,17 and 18 at Riviera?

« **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:27:00 PM »

Kalen:

Kudos to you in understanding that my posting of holes 6-8 was about the ultimate variety they provide. They are not simply three long par-4's in a row.
I don't doubt that 8-10 are very demanding but are limited in being only par-4 type holes.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2007, 07:47:10 PM »

Merion: 2,3,4,5,6 and 14,15,16,17 and 18 (take your choice of three consecutive holes)

Pine Valley: 5,6,7

Philadelphia Country (surely beats most of the previous proposals): 14,15,16,17

Rolling Green: 8,9,10

Shinnecock Hills: 5,6,7 (especially when 5 green is expanded and the possible bunker work is done)

Lancaster Country: 9,10,11

Kittansett: 15,16,17,18 (especially as a par 4)

Indian Creek: 8,9,10

TCC, Pepper Pike: 5,6,7 and 15,16,17

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