[Sébastien Dhaussy]

Here is the link :

http://tinyurl.com/25w8tg

The best Tim Finchem quote (WARNING : Totally OT GCA point of view)  : “Liberty has a lot of potential” “With camera angles, 4,000 feet on the water and the Statue of Liberty very much a part of the landscape, it will look more like New York to the rest of the country when it’s on television. The golf course was built with hospitality in mind, and I think it will be a nice move in 2009.”

Bonus question : with 50 M $ renovations (like TPC Sawgrass), can you move the Statue of Liberty on Westchester grounds ?  

[Matt_Ward]

The idea of Westchester CC no longer being part of the scene is indeed a loss -- the golf layout there has always been a special place and its roster of champions over the years has certainly deomonstrated that.

The rolling terrain of the Harrison-based layout made for special moments and the sheer diversity of holes there is still to be treasured -- e.g., the 8th, 11th, 12th, etc, etc.

Coming to Liberty National will certainly be of interest to Garden State golfers and the expansive views of the lower section of NY-harbor will certainly make for gran viewing.

However, the architecture of the classic Westchester CC will be clearly missed given what the new alternative will provide.

[Mike Sweeney]

Well say what you will, there are many days when I am "sucking exhaust" in line to get over the Triboro Bridge to hit a bucket of balls at Randalls Island where I would love to have Liberty National outside my door. I have heard low numbers on the number of members so far, but I don't really know.

Westchester always had a problem drawing people as it is a US Open and PGA town. From a business perspective it is probably a good move, as that location will bring people in initially.

One thing is for sure, they are not Travis greens over at LN.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: How do you view Liberty National as a test for the top players - how does it compare to Bayonne in that respect?

[David Stamm]

Un-freggin-believable!!! Yet another great venue tossed aside by the infinite wisdom of the powers that be. I "love" the quote made by the gentleman who said that Liberty is something new for the tour to sink it's teeth into. Don't these guys realize that theses venues are the connection the game has with it's past?

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry K:

Liberty National is a muscular layout (7,400+ yards) and plays to a meager par of 70. It was designed in hosting events and clearly the Tour leadership views the move as a step up in getting better access to the deep pocket Wall Street crowd that lies just across the River.

Westchester CC is simply another in the long line of classic courses that have outgrown their use to the continued desire of the PGA Tour to take in more and more $$.

In asking about Bayonne you are talking about a "day and night" type situation. Liberty National is extremely flat and mirrors what you see with many Florida layouts. The course can be narrowed as they see fit and Mike S is right about the green dimensions when compared to what you find at Westchester CC.

Bayonne is extremely inventive in what designer Eric Bergstol created. It cannot hold such a mega field event because the grounds there would not be able to support such a thing. A much smaller and / or specialized event might be the only avenue for its involvement.

I see the professionals shooting no less than what you see at other key events on the Tour. Much of that depends upon how the course is set-up and the nature of the weather -- the wind velocities can be quite vexing and demanding nearer to the harbor area.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Over the last couple of months, LN lengthened it's par-4 eighteenth hole to close to 500 y, playing uphill, but mostly downwind ( ).

Fourteenth is a cool little hole - 150 y to a tiny green.

If the wind blows off Verazzano, as it often does around these parts, Barclay's at LN could be fun to watch.

[Brad Tufts]

I had heard some grumblings about Westchester being a bit fed up with all the tour event brings, although the member I know seem to think that the pride they have in hosting the event overrules the headaches for the membership.

Maybe they move the Barclay's around NY like the BMW will do?  It could definately give the FedEx Cup a spark if they had some different venues each year, making them feel "special" like a major.  

The BMW (former Western) is already going to do this, who knows about the Barclay's, it might be tough for the Deutche Bank, as there aren't that many tour-worthy layouts in MA, and the Tour Champ. is at one venue each year, but a classic one at that.

[Gary Slatter]

Westchester could still be an LPGA venue which may keep it on TV, always have enjoyed watching golf on that course and I can relate to the distances the women hit better.  

[Brad Klein]

You mean those views not blocked out by the buildings? Doesn't leave much. The best view of all is from the back end of the range looking back -- never used, though. Does anyone for a second think that site selection had anything to do with the merits (or whatever) of this particular golf course?

And you gotta love those three holes on the far end of the property tagged on that are squeezed by the roads. At least the 2,000 small trees they planted might mask the roads.

[Jay Flemma]

Brad is exactly right.  Of course the selection had nothing to do with the design.  That stretch on the front of 5-8 is too long, too naroow, too watery, too penal and the greens are too small and featureless to be interesting (except 2&3).  Matt nailed it when he said this was about deep pockets and what it would look like on TV.

Oh well...at least we all have Ballyneal!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played Liberty National and Bayonne on Tuesday.  There is no room for a PGA tournament.  The course is built on a small piece of ground (150 acres or some such number).  Getting to it would be a nightmare.  It is difficult (77.7) course rating.
I believe it when I see it.  It does have some drop dead views of The Statue of Liberty and Manhatten and is very good.  It'll never happen.

Bayonne is an architectural and engineering miracle.  It is as though they plucked a course from Ireland and put it in NY Harbor.  Check out their web site for Pics.  www.bayonnegolfclub.com

[Steve Lapper]

Two words for most of you:

Doral North!

Only missing Palm trees






For the bloggeria's here: We have lots of others

[Brad Klein]

Steve, who needs palm trees when you have 2,000 dopey pear trees and silver maples.

Saying "Doral North" is aspirational.

[Glenn Spencer]

Summer will suck without 10,11 and 12 at Westchester!!!

[Tim_Cronin]

How can you not play the Westchester Classic at Westchester?
Oops. I'm just not as forward-thinking at T. Finchem.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Westchester could still be an LPGA venue which may keep it on TV, always have enjoyed watching golf on that course and I can relate to the distances the women hit better.  

Gary - do you think the members would really be interested in that?  

[Mike Sweeney]

There is no room for a PGA tournament.  The course is built on a small piece of ground (150 acres or some such number).  Getting to it would be a nightmare.
I believe it when I see it.  It does have some drop dead views of The Statue of Liberty and Manhatten and is very good.  It'll never happen.

Tommy,

Want to make it interesting?

In 2009 the US Open will be held in June at Bethpage. "Westchester" is moving to an August date in 2007. How many golf fans are going to Westchester in August 2009 after Bethpage? There is a reason he picked 2009 as a start date. In late August right after Majors season is over, but right before the NFL, the PGA needs to create an "event" to capture interest. Golf will be secondary in an NBA All Star weekend type of way.

In 2013, the US Open will be at 120 acre Merion Golf Club in a crowded suburban neighborhood with tiny streets surrounding it. The only nearby open space is the West course which will be a range, and Haverford College. LN has Liberty National State Park (where you can park and probably walk, no bus), a ton of restaurants along the Jersey waterfront for corporate catering, the players and their wives can stay in Midtown play golf go to Broadway at night and take a ferry to and from.

"Getting to it would be a nightmare."

54% of households in New York City DO NOT own a car, and rely on public transportation, via ferry, subway, bus. Over 1.0 million people a day commute into Manhattan. 70,000 people a day take the Staten Island ferry and many take the private ferries around New York/Jersey. 120,000 cars a day use the nearby Holland Tunnel. I forgot to mention the PATH system Wikipedia did not have those stats, lets say close to 100,000 per day. Getting 30,000 people to and from a golf tournament over a 12 hour day is a drop in the bucket around here, and besides the locals are not here in August anyway.

They may not know how to control technology, but the PGA Tour and USGA know how to move bodies very well, and at Liberty they will have additional infrastructure to do so.

Then there is this conversation:

Mr Barclay: "Tiger, bring the boat up with Elin and the kids for the week and put this little Barclay's sign next to that Nike sign."

Tiger: "Well I have to do a site visit in Dubai that week."

Mr. Barclay: "Here is a blank check."

Tiger: "Can you get me tickets to Lion King?"  

Seriously, how much does Phil Knight of Nike want to have Tiger and the Nike logo all over Paul Fireman of Reebok's golf course for a week in New York harbor?

I am sure the guys at NASCAR are jealous and they have already been here:

[Steve Lapper]

Steve, who needs palm trees when you have 2,000 dopey pear trees and silver maples.

Saying "Doral North" is aspirational.

Brad:

As usual, you are correct!

Maybe Firemen thought they'd bear fruit? I wonder how much he paid the PGA for this fruit?

Maybe "La Gorce North" would be more appropriate!

This place will one day be written up as the largest "bonehead" golf course development in this country!

[Brad Klein]

Steve,

I think they did pretty well for having helicoptered in a Florida real estate style course, shoehorned it next to a highway, surrounded it with dopey little hardwoods and blocked the best views with high rise.

[Matt_Cohn]

Is Trump upset that he didn't get the tournament first?

[Matt_Ward]

The move to Liberty National is more than just $$ -- it is also the desire of a number of key members at Westchester CC to rid themselves of the Classic. Clearly that's their prerogative.

Frankly, I am a bit disappointed because Westchester CC is one of the last remaining mainstays of classic golf architecture. On top of that, you have a course that is far from long (under 6,800 yds), yet it's located on terrain that has constantly vexed the world's greatest players.

What made Westchester so unique -- beyond the qualities of the course -- was the sheer love so many players -- American and International -- have for the place.

R.I.P. indeed ...

P.S. I can't wait to see how Liberty National hopes to handle the incoming traffic tied to the event. The NJ Tpke extension is often clogged with traffic to / from NYC via the Holland Tunnel and the side streets via Jersey City can't handle what's there now. Well, what am I saying, the truly connected will approach the site with their yacht and / or helicopter.

[Bruce Katona]

And the board wonders why the business of golf is in the mess it is....this makes no economic sense, only that LN needs the event to market memberships to try to limit their economic loss.

[Voytek Wilczak]

I don't think they will have problems moving crowds.

A Light Rail stop is nearby (Liberty State Park) as is a huge Park and Ride area. Ferries and PATH train will be running from Manhattan to Downtown Jersey City, where folks can pick up the Light Rail to Liberty State Park.

Architectural criticism of LN notwithstanding, this will be a PGA Tour event in a 100% urban setting. People will be able to get to the event kinda like to a Yankee or a Met game.

Certainly a unique concept, and I can see how it is appealing to Finchem.

[Mike Sweeney]

And the board wonders why the business of golf is in the mess it is....this makes no economic sense, only that LN needs the event to market memberships to try to limit their economic loss.

Bruce,

Can you explain how this "makes no economic sense" for the PGA Tour to move to a location that is literally in the middle of the largest media market in the world.

Please be clear that I love the concept of the event at Westchester, but reality is I only went once over the last 18 years and that was really to get my son to run around at an event that was not that crowded even on a Sunday.

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