Sorry to lob a grenade in the room and close the door behind me but I'm curious, yet not up for a long post.  I've been thinking about this for a couple of months now.  So....

Am I flat out wrong if I opine that:

1.  Bandon Trails is the equal of Pacific Dunes?
2.  Neither is "world class?" (Both Top 10 Modern?  YES)
3.  Bandon Trails is easily superior to Cuscowilla?
4.  Bandon Dunes is borderline Top 50 Modern?

I tend to be a contrarian, which is another way of admitting I could be wrong.  

Mike

1.  It's a matter of taste, I suppose, but they're each great.
2.  Both world class, IMHO.
3.  Haven't played Cuscowilla, but the ocean might sway that vote in and of itself.
4.  Nothing borderline about it.

Am I flat out wrong if I opine that:

1.  Bandon Trails is the equal of Pacific Dunes?
2.  Neither is "world class?" (Both Top 10 Modern?  YES)
3.  Bandon Trails is easily superior to Cuscowilla?
4.  Bandon Dunes is borderline Top 50 Modern?

Yes, you are (IMHO, of course).

1.  No.  Bandon Trails is a great course and I enjoyed it immensely.  It's probably more challenging than Pacific Dunes, especially with regard to length.  But, I see more average (in context) holes at BT than at PD.  At PD, I would say #1 and #12 qualify as just okay; the remainder of the holes are better than that.  At BT, I would categorize 7, 9, 10 and 11 as less than stellar.  

2.  As Tom H said, it depends on what you mean by "world class."  It's difficult for me to believe that Pacific Dunes isn't world class.  If you were to select a handful courses on which to play, and left aside considerations such as history and club atmosphere, it seems to me that Pacific Dunes would appear on many people's list.  It's a better course than many of the links classics that people take pilgrimages to the UK and Ireland to play.  

3.  Don't know--haven't played Cuscowilla.  It wouldn't surprise me; I have a very high opinion of Bandon Trails.  

4.  I don't have a great feel for what's a "Top 50 Modern," but I'll say that I prefer Bandon Dunes to the Ocean Course at Kiawah and I'm guessing that the latter would comfortably make most people's list of top 50.  My sense is that Bandon Dunes may have been initially overrated, but now a recent backlash has caused it to be underrated.  

Michael,

Don't Nos. 5 and 11 essentially bend left?  I agree with a lot of your criticisms.  In particular, I agree that the par 5s are pretty mediocre (although I like #18 better than most); #17 is a bit of an oddball; and it seems like the routing could have been better.  Still, I think the sum of the parts is pretty darned good.  

Michael,

I can only really comment on #2.  If PD isn't world class, then I'm not really sure what is?  While I haven't played them, I would suspect its not in the class of a Cypress or a Pine Valley, but then again, who is?

I believe there are 7000 courses in the US?  It may be more than that, but I'll error on the conservative side. % wise that still puts PD in the 99.7 Percentile.  If thats not a world class level, then your standards are "off the charts" high.

OK, so the problem here is the Golfweek raters have missed the boat, once again. I can certainly live with that.

 

Interesting though.. in the end we are just splitting hairs, because all of those courses could certainly be called "great" as well.  If Bandon Dunes didn't float your boat as much as the ones you listed, then that's cool - it's certainly no denigration of Bandon Dunes.

Good lord, Rich Goodale's "star system" in the end probably is the best way to classify courses... within each star it really is going to come down to personal preference.  You didn't dig Bandon Dunes, I did.  Gulp.

TH

DISCLOSURE:  I only played this course once and was too fatigued to golf my ball with any competence whatsoever.

Thoughts?

Mike

I think for only playing it once you seem to remember a lot.  Two thoughts on that; either you spent to much time critiquing the course to enjoy it, or your using stock criticisms.  Either way to think that you've got the pulse of the course after seeing it once is ridiculous.  But alas the so called Bandon experts who've played the courses a whopping 5 times  are equally ridiculous.  

But alas the so called Bandon experts who've played the courses a whopping 5 times  are equally ridiculous.  

I presume you are kidding.

If for some unfathomable reason you are not, please explain how the opinion of someone who has played the course 5 times is "equally ridiculous" to the opinion of the person who has played it once.

Relax Joe - it's all good, as you youngsters like to say.  Recall that my original premise suggested I might be wrong and I could have foregone the disclaimer to puff up my opinion.  

I have to admit that I am unabashedly in love with golf courses - not so with the game these days.  Accordingly, I try to pay close attention.  Wasn't aware that there were stock criticisms of Bandon Dunes.  Perhaps what you call stock criticism is actually consensus.

My gut tells me that Bandon Dunes is ordinary at times.  That doesn't mean it's not a very good golf course.

Kindest regards,

Mike

 

I think that Mike's criticisms are founded in some cases.

It's true that the bunkering style changes after the first (or first two) holes.  More of an observation than a criticism at face value...but all will draw their own conclusions.

I, too, noticed that many of the holes play as dogleg rights.  To be fair, the 5th and 11th, as was pointed out earlier, play right to left.

I've always felt that the whole bunker-created dogleg right tee shot was a bit omnipresent (3, 8, 10, 14).

The buildings I have no problem with - it promotes the "village" feel of the place and I like having that on BD - no, it wouldnt be appropriate on the other courses, but with BD as the social center of the resort, I like playing away from and back to the resort.  

I have played BD 7 times, so perhaps by Joe's fuzzy math this makes my opinion here more ridiculous than Mr. Hendren's...

In my opinion it is the lesser of the three courses at the resort, and is still deserving of top 50 modern status, though there are courses below it that I believe are better, and there are courses above it that I believe are worse.

The 11th is referenced as a dogleg left.  Perhaps.  I'll say this, it is my favorite hole on the golf course because line off the tee is more important than distance and the small greenside bunker dictates play on the entire hole:



I kept thinking that if the fairway bunkers were moved to the right 10-15 yards and the higher ground left of them was also maintained as fairway, it would be one heck of a bottle hole.

Mike

Michael,

No. 11 is also my favorite hole at BD--with the gorse, pot bunkers and its simplicity, it seems very Scottish to me (although I've never been to Scotland).  

I wonder to what extent people's preferences for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails over Bandon Dunes can be attributed to aesthetics, specifically the wilder-looking bunkers of PD and BT compared to the pot bunkers of BD.  I'm guessing it's fairly significant.  Personally, I'm thankful for the diversity.  

Mike/bogie aka double bogie I like your notes on Bandon Dunes as well. I have always talked of drainage and number 13, 16 and 17. It is a very good course and worthy of the resort but not top 20 modern. Huck the GD rankings have become indefenseable therefore firing a bullit at GW does not change that. lol GD does understand rater conference locations for after hours fun but forces some very suspect golf at them during the day. Maybe a week at Bandon would change that. GW has been there twice.