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John Kavanaugh

Who are green sites really designed for?
« on: May 08, 2007, 09:07:54 AM »
I'm getting a little tired of this Mucciesque attitude that design is all things to all people.  No matter how long the hole or how wide the fairway we all play the same greens and green sites.  I personally would rather play a green or green site designed to challenge a +5 than a 36 handicap.  Both are extremes....but where does and or should reality fall.
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TEPaul

Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 09:48:23 AM »
Green sites are designed only for Monsieur Doucet Drainage. (Dran-aaah--j(a))
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J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 09:51:24 AM »
Greens and green complexes should be designed for the better player, especially in today's world, because this is about the only place left where you can challenge them and still have a course that is playable for the average player.  I think Pinehurst #2 is the poster child for this.  

And just because you are designing for the better player doesn't mean you can't leave open approaches to allow the ball to be played along the ground.  It's about presenting options.

John
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Mark Bourgeois

Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 10:00:29 AM »
If you wanted to challenge low-handicap golfers and not worry about others, would you make the greens tiny?

If you wanted to challenge low-handicap golfers but make playable for all, are really huge greens still effective?
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Peter Pallotta

Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 10:08:57 AM »
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 08, 2007, 09:56:31 AM
Options are great -- when they're actually options.  That's the real art of it all.  

I think that's a terrific observation, and a pithy quote.

Yes, more and more it seems to me that the 'magic trick' is designing options, hazards, choices, and opportunities that actually function that way, and not on some meta level where everyone agrees to act AS IF there were options, hazards etc.

Peter
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Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 10:33:02 AM »
One of the advantages of using grass, both short and long, as a greenside hazard is that it seems to befuddle good players, while letting long handicap players get around without losing too many more strokes.

I watch good players agonize over getting the shot close enough to save par from both sticky greenside rough and tight approaches. But the 20+ handicapper is mostly just trying to get the next shot on the putting surface.

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John Kavanaugh

Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 10:38:54 AM »
Does a bunker fronting a green now and then really hurt anyone?  On most occasions the hack either hits it left, right or short anyway and is left with a wedge approach.  It may even go so far to equalize the hole as both good and bad players miss the green for a change.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 11:12:06 AM by John Kavanaugh »
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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 10:48:42 AM »
Obviously greens and greensites are designed a little differently for public courses that may get 35,000 rounds and a private clubs that may only get 15,000 rounds.  At public courses it is important to be able to get folks around the course in good order.  Those greensites may have bunkers that are easier to escape and greens that are on the large size.

A Country Club also caters to a variety of golfing skills.  Depending on what the founders had in mind CCs seem to have courses that are user friendly.  Not all, mind you, but most. That does not mean the course is not well designed but caters to players of all ages and skill levels.

In my experience Clubs that are strictly for golf have the most difficult greensites.  Many Golf Clubs get only 10,000-15,000 rounds a year and cater to players that are serious golfers who are either good players or players that want the extra challenge.  Greens can be smaller with more slope and undulation, bunkers deeper and the use of waste area and other hazard type places used without someone bellyaching.



 
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 11:44:35 AM »
Tommy,

while I agree with you that green complexes at a Muni are going to be generally designed slightly differently I would suggest that it would be along the following lines:

1. the greens will be larger to accommodate the extra traffic.
2. there will be more priority given to traffic movement and safety.
3. While you probably won't find 6ft deep pot bunkers on them the bunkers can be of a depth so as to provide a challange (3-4ft) and may be close to the green if traffic has another channel.
4. the greens may be well contoured so long as enough pin positions are provided. Due to extra height of cut the slopes maybe even more severe than at many private clubs.
5. there should be a general lack of areas where a player may have to search for a ball.

I don't understand this idea that public golf means dumbing down the challange.
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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 12:51:30 PM »
Jon, I agree with your points.  I did not mean to imply "dumbing down".  
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 02:39:24 PM »
John,
I think you could do most anything to a green and its surrounds, and keep it real, as long as you limit the tilt. Greens with big long slopes in one direction or the other are harder to play as handicaps rise.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who are green sites really designed for?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 06:13:51 PM »
Jim,

yes you are correct in that long slopes make the course harder for higher handicappers. Shorter, subtle and less subtle breaks dont affect the higher handicapper as much as the lower. Maybe this is a feature more muni courses should have. The sort of movement that I would imagine is about that found on TOC though the greens need not be so large.
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