John Huggan gives the group a mention

« **on:** April 28, 2007, 10:12:26 PM »

In the 4/29 Scotland on Sunday, Huggan, the paper's golf writer, notes our existence. In part:

Then there is dear old North Berwick. Many of the self-proclaimed experts on a favourite architecture website (golfclubatlas.com) of mine are quick to extol the virtues of this eccentric East Lothian course - they love what they love to call "quirk" - but to rank it 50th in the world outside of America is more than a bit of a stretch.

A web link (I hope) to the column in full: http://sport.scotsman.com/golf.cfm?id=660902007

« **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:14:46 AM »

He thinks Dunbar is better. And his sarcasm re: Sandwich? No clue.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:18:13 AM »

Quote from: Paul_Turner on April 29, 2007, 12:14:46 AM

He thinks Dunbar is better.

Oh my.

« **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:34:37 AM »

What architects have made the Hall of Fame? No CB MacDonald and Harry Colt? The two who virtually invented the profession.

(It's almost as bad as the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame)

« **Reply #4 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:50:00 AM »

Quote from: Paul_Turner on April 29, 2007, 12:14:46 AM

He thinks Dunbar is better. And his sarcasm re: Sandwich? No clue.

Maybe he is looking at it alphabetically!

« **Reply #5 on:** April 29, 2007, 01:23:21 AM »

Quote from: Paul_Turner on April 29, 2007, 12:14:46 AM

He thinks Dunbar is better. And his sarcasm re: Sandwich? No clue.

Where does he mention Dunbar? I don't see it.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2007, 03:41:45 AM »

Mr Hugan has always been overly critical of North Berwick , but remember he is a member at Dunbar.

I was surprised to see he has played Morfontaine !.

« **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2007, 04:03:57 AM »

I agree with Brian that Huggan has a "local derby" dislike of North Berwick, but I also agree with Huggan that North Berwick is overrated, particulalry by participants on this site. It is a fun course, but barely "top-20" in Scotland (if that), much less "top-50" in the ROW (ex-USA).

PS--He's right about Sandwich, too, at least in terms of how it was set up for the Curtis Open. Like Carnoustie 1999, it shows how a great course can be made to look goofy through incompetence in preparation and setup.

PPS--oh yeah, let's add Shinnecock to the list of set-up incompetencies.....

« **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2007, 07:20:20 AM »

I'm hoping Andy Levett see's this and puts up North Berwick for rating. (About time we showed RFG he's wrong about something

)

« **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2007, 07:52:47 AM »

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on April 29, 2007, 04:03:57 AM

I agree with Brian that Huggan has a "local derby" dislike of North Berwick, but I also agree with Huggan that North Berwick is overrated, particulalry by participants on this site. It is a fun course, but barely "top-20" in Scotland (if that), much less "top-50" in the ROW (ex-USA).

RFG,

it depends how you do the rating. NB makes my top 20 in Scotland any day

« **Reply #10 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:56:14 AM »

I’m also a North Berwick fan. I’d be interested to know which courses RFG puts above North Berwick in Scotland's Top 20.

Wasn’t Carnoustie 1999 a case of the organisers and greens staff being caught out by a wet weather period followed by a warm period shortly before the Open which encouraged a vigorous growth of the vegetation.

There’s a decision point at which the organisers have to say “stop cutting the rough” to achieve the appearance in the rough of the normal long whispy grasses with the seed heads - an integral part of the Open setting. The alternative of going in with the mowers shortly before the competition was never an option.

More a case of being unfortunate rather than incompetence?

« **Reply #11 on:** April 29, 2007, 10:22:32 AM »

Mid Ocean: "nice, but hardly memorable".

I generally like Mr. Huggan's columns (including this one), but that's just daft.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 29, 2007, 10:46:01 AM »

Tony

Asking this group to rate North Berwick would be about as reliable as asking the Pamela Anderson Fan Club to rate boob jobs.

J C-S

I'd rate Carnoustie, Dornoch, Trunberry, Troon, the Old Course, Western Gailes, Prestwick, the New Course, Royal Aberdeen, Machrihanish, Brora, Cruden Bay and Kingsbarns clearly "better" than North Berwick. My guess is that Loch Lomond and Dundonald might be better too, but I haven't played them. Other courses which are roughly equivalent to NB (some may call them better, some worse) are places such as Gullane #1, Murcar, Lundin Links, Elie, Skibo, Ladybank, Southerness, Blairgowrie, Lossiemouth (old) and the Eden Course. Dunbar and Crail and a few others might make that list too. Just my opinions, of course.

Vis a vis Carnoustie 1999, they over watered and over fertilized. As I've reported before, they will be stopping all watering of the course in a few weeks so that by the time of the Open it will be fast, firm and with proper wispy/irregular rough. Fingers crossed.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 29, 2007, 11:32:56 AM »

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on April 29, 2007, 10:46:01 AM

Tony

Asking this group to rate North Berwick would be about as reliable as asking the Pamela Anderson Fan Club to rate boob jobs.

J C-S

I'd rate Carnoustie, Dornoch, Trunberry, Troon, the Old Course, Western Gailes, Prestwick, the New Course, Royal Aberdeen, Machrihanish, Brora, Cruden Bay and Kingsbarns clearly "better" than North Berwick. My guess is that Loch Lomond and Dundonald might be better too, but I haven't played them. Other courses which are roughly equivalent to NB (some may call them better, some worse) are places such as Gullane #1, Murcar, Lundin Links, Elie, Skibo, Ladybank, Southerness, Blairgowrie, Lossiemouth (old) and the Eden Course. Dunbar and Crail and a few others might make that list too. Just my opinions, of course.

Vis a vis Carnoustie 1999, they over watered and over fertilized. As I've reported before, they will be stopping all watering of the course in a few weeks so that by the time of the Open it will be fast, firm and with proper wispy/irregular rough. Fingers crossed.

I really think this should wait for it's own thread but anyone else place Brora above N. Berwick?

I am unable to express an opinion about any of the others except to agree Re Dornoch and Turnberry. I'm asuming the absence of a certain course begining with M. is an oversight and not another attempt get a brawl going on here

.

« **Reply #14 on:** April 29, 2007, 11:42:43 AM »

RFG

I doubt they watered the rough in 1999 - where did you get this inside information?

Most people would agree with your first tier golf courses and I would put North Berwick with them and although I love all the second tier courses you listed I’d never put them above North Berwick (Skibo?).

Where do you rate Pamela Anderson's Boobs then?

« **Reply #15 on:** April 29, 2007, 11:46:48 AM »

Quote from: John Chilver-Stainer on April 29, 2007, 11:42:43 AM

Where do you rate Pamela Anderson's Boobs then?

Certainly not in the "minimalist" style!

« **Reply #16 on:** April 29, 2007, 11:48:20 AM »

I enjoyed Lundin Links greatly, and I love Crail, but I could never put them in the same rank or above North Berwick's West Links. Sorry, but that's daft.

IMHO of course.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 29, 2007, 11:59:04 AM »

John
I dont know if Carnoustie was guilty of over-watering before the 1999 open either , but they certainly have been guilty since then .

Well until the R&A stepped in last summer .

« **Reply #18 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:14:43 PM »

J C-S

I didn't say above that they watered the rough, did I? That being said, I have heard that they did, although I wouldn't swear to it.

I think Skibo is better than most people on this site think, and I hear they are (again) making some serious changes to some of the less than stellar parts of the course. Maybe I'll get a chance to check them out when I am up in the area in a few weeks.

Vis a vis Pam A., I haven't seen them yet. Could anybody here on GCA arrange for access?

Bill McB

Anybody who raves about the Dunvegan and Bellhaven's Best is seriously lacking in discrimination and/or judgement.....

« **Reply #19 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:20:31 PM »

Gentlemen,

I can assure you that at Carnoustie they didn't water let alone fertilise the rough. Carnoustie is long and tight and in 1999 the rough was also very lush.

RFG, you are in my opinion correct to rate Carnoustie, Dornoch, Turnberry, Troon, the Old Course, Prestwick, the New Course and Royal Aberdeen ahead of Noth Berwich

Machrihanish, Brora, Cruden Bay and possibly Western Gailes are on a par with it. Kingsbarns is as good a course playing wise but doesn't have the pedigree which is also a part of the total judging concept. Loch Lomond and Dundonald might be better too, but I haven't played them is like saying I might be a better player than Tiger Woods but am not sure as I have not played him, please!!!! Other courses which are roughly equivalent to NB (some may call them better, some worse) are places such as Gullane #1, Murcar, Lundin Links, Elie, Skibo, Ladybank, Southerness, Blairgowrie and Lossiemouth (old) can also see But the Eden Course, Dunbar and Crail

« **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:39:28 PM »

Jon

I take your assurance. Thanks. I will check with the powers that be, next time I see them, however, as I still have a nagging voice in my brain saying otherwise.

PS--I added Dunbar as a sop to Huggan. I've played it only once and thought it very good but not great, kinda like North Berwick.... Crail I added as a sop to my (former?) friend Bill McBride. As for the Eden, I'm a sucker for it, even with it's silly Donald Steele holes. The 11-12 remaining Colt stuff is as good as anything on the Pilmour Links, and I would (and do) play that course ahead of any of its brethren. It's golf, rather than a production line.

« **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2007, 06:17:52 PM »

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on April 29, 2007, 10:46:01 AM

Tony

Asking this group to rate North Berwick would be about as reliable as asking the Pamela Anderson Fan Club to rate boob jobs.

J C-S

I'd rate Carnoustie, Dornoch, Trunberry, Troon, the Old Course, Western Gailes, Prestwick, the New Course, Royal Aberdeen, Machrihanish, Brora, Cruden Bay and Kingsbarns clearly "better" than North Berwick. My guess is that Loch Lomond and Dundonald might be better too, but I haven't played them. Other courses which are roughly equivalent to NB (some may call them better, some worse) are places such as Gullane #1, Murcar, Lundin Links, Elie, Skibo, Ladybank, Southerness, Blairgowrie, Lossiemouth (old) and the Eden Course. Dunbar and Crail and a few others might make that list too. Just my opinions, of course.

Rich

I am baffled by many of the courses you think are better or equal to North Berwick, but I will defer to your superior knowledge - afterall, you write books. But I tell ya, for my money there isn't a course up there I would rather play instead of North Berwick.

I will challenge your opinions regarding Curtis Sandwich. There was not thing wrong with the setup. The problem is with peoples' perception of what a championship course is and how it should be setup (or not).

Ciao

« **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2007, 07:12:41 PM »

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on April 29, 2007, 12:39:28 PM

Jon

I take your assurance. Thanks. I will check with the powers that be, next time I see them, however, as I still have a nagging voice in my brain saying otherwise.

PS--I added Dunbar as a sop to Huggan. I've played it only once and thought it very good but not great, kinda like North Berwick.... Crail I added as a sop to my (former?) friend Bill McBride. As for the Eden, I'm a sucker for it, even with it's silly Donald Steele holes. The 11-12 remaining Colt stuff is as good as anything on the Pilmour Links, and I would (and do) play that course ahead of any of its brethren. It's golf, rather than a production line.

"Former?" Not at all, my friend, this is all personal opinion. Here we go again with my favorite GCA.com bete noir, head to head ranking of wonderful courses. I do indeed enjoy the Crail Balcomie, but I started and finished the most recent trip to Scotland with North Berwick for a reason. It's like a history lesson while having great fun, and it's close to the Edinburgh airport for an arrival day round at 1 p.m. There is nothing in golf for me like the run of holes from 13-17 at North Berwick. The Pit, Perfection, Redan, Gate, Point O'Garry In. Quirk to revel in. If it's Crail vs NB West Links, it's 8-2 NBWL.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 29, 2007, 11:48:00 PM »

And Bill, that low raking draw on 18. is also a nerve tester!

« **Reply #24 on:** April 30, 2007, 04:55:10 AM »

Sean

Which of my 13 do you think are not significantly better than North Berwick and why? I might concede Brora, since I am almost a homer there and put it in only to provoke NB-phanatics like you.

As for Sandwich, I said all I wanted to say in the various threads at the time. To give you the Cliff Notes version--too fast and firm and tight for the terrain. Clueless "maintenance meld" as TEP might say, if he really knew what "maintenance meld" meant.....

. Same as Shinnecock and Carnoustie 1999, BTW.

Great course, disappointing Open.

Bill

Funny, but my dream stretch at NB is 10-13. Tremendous holes with a great flow to them. After that it just loses its rhythm and gets too goofy. Fun? Of course. Great golf? No.

Rich

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