The best ball for playing hickories ?

« **on:** April 28, 2007, 05:08:56 PM »

Wayne gave me a couple of balls made by Nike which have a softer feel off the blade. I have tried the Ohio Golf low compression ball, and it seems to play pretty well.

Any know how available ?

« **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2007, 05:39:24 PM »

Willie,
I've hit balatas w/hickory and they seem to work well. They're
fairly cheap here:
http://search.ebay.com/balata-golf-balls_W0QQfkrZ1QQfnuZ1

p.s., the 'clear' cover balls by Volvik, Pinnacle, etc., are all pretty low compression and soft. Probably work pretty well for you.

p.p.s. The OGA used the Volvik PROsPECT ball.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2007, 06:31:48 PM »

even although they're not super super low compression, a pro v should be fine on a warm day without risking damage to the shaft.
i was out playing for the first time in about 6 months today... played hickory every shot all the way round, and was absolutely killing the ball! so much more fun than normal clubs, plus when you go back to normal clubs you realise how much more room for error you get these days!

« **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2007, 10:12:14 PM »

Pro V1's, the standard vresion not the x, is one of the best. My basic test is if you can indent the cover with your thumbnail.
I do miss the Balata balls, they had a great feel to them that is missing in the new balls. It was like you could feel them holding onto the face for just the right length of time. I wish they were a viable alternative but they are too degraded by now to effectively use.

« **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2007, 10:59:44 PM »

I Googled for "balata" and got a web site that sells lots of different kinds of balls. The Titleist Professional balata felt best of all with my hickories.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2007, 11:48:03 PM »

I have about 100 Titleist Professionals in AAA condition if anyone is interested. Send me an IM.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2007, 12:48:15 AM »

Any comment on Persimmon woods and current balls? I used a persimmon driver for one tee shot the other day, and a Pro V1. Seemed ok although it sounded like a silencer had been used when I hit the ball.

Would Laddies work with Persimmon as well?

James B

« **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2007, 07:18:17 AM »

Bill, Ralph etc please define what you mean by 'best' ball for playing hickories. The one that will give the best result or the one that best fits the authentic experience of pre 1930's golf?

If Alfie see's this hopefully he will chime in, because I know he is intrigued by the vogue for using Hickories with a modern ball. If you want to try either a gutta percha from an original mold or a 1920's spec wound ball he can get them for you - but I’ve asked him to stop giving them away!

« **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:25:42 AM »

Many thanks, guys! Perhaps Alfie could deliver a price on his product, Tony. It would be fun to try and play the old ball.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2007, 04:56:50 PM »

Tony, Willie et al..

Best ball available ? I would agree with Ralph re a soft balata. Obviously, the balata gives a softer feel and more importantly, is much kinder to your old hickories ! The modern rocks will soon tweek out any weaknesses in those old wooden shafts !!

Of course, the ball which would give the ultimate experience and authenticity - would be one of my own hand made gutta's

Not cheap at £10 per ball though ? Sadly, I can no longer offer these as I've found it impossible to obtain the correct quality of raw gutta percha

Gutta percha is an olde worlde material nowadays

To explain ; I've just completed a run of 100 gutta's (The Challenger ; bramble) headed for Portugal and the States which are sold as "display" balls only. The balls are far too brittle to survive many strokes with a club. For me, part of the fun in making these balls was in knowing that the buyer could take them out and whack the shit out of em' (as Arnie used to say of his own technique). Since that may no longer be possible, I fear my ball making days are now over ?

The other alternative would have been the gutty lattice pattern replica (one piece) made by the old Penfold company in Birmingham, England. They made a run of some 10,000 or so in the 90's of which I still have a small supply - sorry...not for sale - hickory play only ! A very similar ball was made in the States in the 1.68in mode $:-\$ but I don't know if they are still available ?

Not much bloody help, am I ?

re - Tony's comment regarding play with modern balls ; it's been an infernal dissapointment to me to see the many hickory enthusiasts all over the world extol the virtues of Pro V's and other miscellaneous crap ! I say this because of their accent on authenticity at competitions, ie..replica clubs are normally banned ?
We also had a minor coup this year when the World Professional Hickory Championship was held at Craigielaw. £10,000 was up for grabs, would you believe - and they let the pro's play with modern balls

Ach well, maybe they'll have evolved to play with 1930's steel shafts next year ?

Alfie.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 29, 2007, 06:38:46 PM »

I generally use a low compression ball like the Noodle or Callaway Pearl when I play with Hickory if I cant find any old Tour Balatas or other wound liquid core balls that are pretty hard to find now. I think of what is out there today anything softer and low compression like the above is your best bet.

I play Persimmon full time and again a softer lower compression ball is best for the insert. In the winter I play the Callaway Pearl and in the summer the Srixon Z-URS. I find that on harder ground that rolls out you can hit a Persimmon driver pretty far with a modern ball.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 29, 2007, 07:06:45 PM »

Quote from: Tony Muldoon on April 29, 2007, 07:18:17 AM

Bill, Ralph etc please define what you mean by 'best' ball for playing hickories. The one that will give the best result or the one that best fits the authentic experience of pre 1930's golf?

If Alfie see's this hopefully he will chime in, because I know he is intrigued by the vogue for using Hickories with a modern ball. If you want to try either a gutta percha from an original mold or a 1920's spec wound ball he can get them for you - but I’ve asked him to stop giving them away!

Tony, I haven't experienced playing my hickories with "antique" balls, but I do prefer the soft feel of the balata versus the soft feel of the Pro V1. Not sure why, it's very much personal. Read what Alfie says above, I guess he'd like to see us all playing gutties but there aren't enough and they aren't very affordable. I get a very good soft but solid feeling from a good swing with the hickory club with the Titleist Professional (balata).

« **Reply #12 on:** April 29, 2007, 10:50:02 PM »

Quote from: Tony Muldoon on April 29, 2007, 07:18:17 AM

If Alfie see's this hopefully he will chime in, because I know he is intrigued by the vogue for using Hickories with a modern ball.

Since the clubs I play with are 1920s vintage, I don't think it's such a stretch to play with modern balls. According to the GCA.com interview with Ralph Livingston, the small balls that in Bobby Jones's era were almost certainly hotter than those of the late 30s through 60s. The interview is here http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewlivingston.html

The USGA didn't increase the size to 1.68" until the 30s, and there were hot, tightly wound balls, and "heavies" available in the early 1920s.

They were all much hotter than gutties, and much easier on the clubs as well--especially woods without inserts.

I have a stash of wound Slazenger Players from about 4 years ago, that work beautifully, and feel almost like a balata.

Ken

« **Reply #13 on:** April 29, 2007, 10:52:58 PM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on April 29, 2007, 07:06:45 PM

I get a very good soft but solid feeling from a good swing with the hickory club with the Titleist Professional (balata).

The professional had some form of a urethane cover, like the ProV1. As did the Professional's predecessor, the Titleist Tour Prestige.

Of course, they both were wound balls with a small rubber core, unlike the ProV1, which is solid with two covers, one very firm, and one every soft.

Ken

« **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:35:02 AM »

Quote from: Alfie on April 29, 2007, 04:56:50 PM

re - Tony's comment regarding play with modern balls ; it's been an infernal dissapointment to me to see the many hickory enthusiasts all over the world extol the virtues of Pro V's and other miscellaneous crap ! I say this because of their accent on authenticity at competitions, ie..replica clubs are normally banned ?
We also had a minor coup this year when the World Professional Hickory Championship was held at Craigielaw. £10,000 was up for grabs, would you believe - and they let the pro's play with modern balls Ach well, maybe they'll have evolved to play with 1930's steel shafts next year ?

Alfie.

Alfie

Is it not true that the boom in hickory shafted golf--and the era when most all of our clubs are were made-- was from the beginning of the Haskell 1902 ball (?) into the mid-1920s?

Many balls, if not most, of the balls during that era were definitely smaller, heavier and perhaps more tightly wound that the 1.62" "British-sized ball" and much smaller than the later 1.68" ball we currently use.

So it's not a stretch to suggest that todays balls are much, much closer to the performance of the 1920s models than anything from the 1950s of 1960s.

Ralph L seems to have good documentation of how hot the balls were back then http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewlivingston.html

Of course, before 1900, things were greatly different, but I don't see much interest among the hickory players in going back to the guttie era. At least on on today's golf courses.

K

« **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:37:05 AM »

Ken, I’m no expert but have only used hickories with featherie, gutta percha and one of the wound balls Alfie had made to recreate the 20’s feel. As we said on the recent GCA trip round Old Musselburgh,
-   The wound ball felt soft but ran and ran on chips and felt very lively off the face of a putter.
-   The gutta percha was at least club shorter but had a lovely ‘click’ on a full shot but felt dead on putts. Also last summer on a lovely warm day after only 9 holes it was far from round. To my surprise it didn’t seem to affect the flight of the ball at all, but it gave me excuses I needed for missing putts.
-   The featherie – one shot only, a further club shorter and the stitches immediately became visible.

I do think there’s room to further improve the Hickory experience, but you do need to find the right course to do it. Last year at Hoylake I played a round with Ran using his Hickories and a Pro V1. I’m an average hitter, but I was using modern clubs, and he was keeping up.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:50:14 AM »

Tony,

That's about what I'd expect, as I have some old balatas, and repro featherie and guttie.

But my real question still remains.

Are the balls of the golden age (~1910-~1930) actually represented by those 1.68" balatas? We know that the featherie and guttie were dead by then.

Remember, Bobby Jones said he never played a guttie, the Haskell ball was introduced the year he was born.

And prior to the introduction of the 1.62"-1.62-ounce ball in the 1921s, there were some small, heavy balls in play. And the current 1.68-1.62 ball was only introduced in the US in 1932. (The balloon ball--1.68-1.55--was 1930 and 1931, according to http://www.ruleshistory.com/clubs.html)

So, it appears to me that using a modern ball with clubs from ~1920 isn't even a minor perversion of the intent, especially when I have to play on an irrigated modern course.

Ken

« **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2007, 11:37:17 AM »

Tony - you asked me what I meant by the "best ball", and I didn't respond. Sorry ! But the comments here are opening more questions than I thought would be available.

I have an old Spalding Dimple, which I believe to be an old Haskell, right ? Would I dare to hit it ? I even have an old bronze mold, which I guess I could use to bring it back into shape if it goes out of round, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I guess that means, I'd like to try something that goes back to the 20's without really wasting a collectible.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 30, 2007, 11:55:58 AM »

A mold? IM on it's way.

Tony

« **Reply #19 on:** April 30, 2007, 01:31:28 PM »

A couple of things....
Gutty balls do not make authentic golf, except if you are trying to play 1850-1901 golf. The majority of the golf played is 1905-1931 and that is what is refered to as hickorygolf.
1.68 balls were very common through the 1920's and was one of the reasons it was considered for the USGA standardization. The push for a floater, which were typically 1.72" or larger, balloned even more in the wind than the 1.68/1.55.
The 1.62/1.62's used during the 1920's by the Pro's were at least comparable to the current ball. The carry distances match up quite well with the current ball.

There is a gentleman who is remolding mdern balls in original mesh molds. As soon as some things get worked out they will be commercially available.

I will also have a printed piece on the ball available in the next month that many here will find very interesting.

« **Reply #20 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:21:46 PM »

Firstly, I'll apologise for not being able to keep up here - just too busy.

kmoum said,
"Is it not true that the boom in hickory shafted golf--and the era when most all of our clubs are were made-- was from the beginning of the Haskell 1902 ball (?) into the mid-1920s?"

If you are talking from a rest of the world perspective, then that's probably true. As far as the UK is concerned, the "boom" began in the early 1890's.

Tony said ;
"I do think there’s room to further improve the Hickory experience, but you do need to find the right course to do it. Last year at Hoylake I played a round with Ran using his Hickories and a Pro V1. I’m an average hitter, but I was using modern clubs, and he was keeping up."

Totally agree. Having only had an involvement with hickory play for some 12 years I'll admit that I still have a lot to learn - but so do others ! Right from the start of my hickory adventure, I've strived to "encourage and introduce" golfers into the world of the olde game. Unfortunately, there are others who consider themselves "organised" and who are known to have chased golfers away with their philosophy of "hickory golf" !
Hickory golf is not (IMO) about knowing all the history, the balls, the clubs, or having some 50% infatuation with "authenticity" ! It's about getting people to go out and have a shot, have some fun, and hopefully learn from that experience.
For the average golfer, true authenticity is unpractical and unrealistic to attain because of the balls for play....and the quality of the course to play upon !

Ralph said ;
"The majority of the golf played is 1905-1931 and that is what is refered to as hickorygolf."

Ralph,
Can you clarify this statement and explain your definition of "hickorygolf" ? 1905 - 1931 ?

In regard to your reference about the "floater" ball, may I just point out for any readers, that this ball should not be confused with the UK definition of the floater (circa 1848 - early 20th century) which was made of gutta percha and essentially - floated in water. The term "sinker" was also used for the ones that didn't float

Alfie.

« **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:02:51 AM »

Quote from: Alfie on April 30, 2007, 10:21:46 PM

Firstly, I'll apologise for not being able to keep up here - just too busy.

kmoum said,
"Is it not true that the boom in hickory shafted golf--and the era when most all of our clubs are were made-- was from the beginning of the Haskell 1902 ball (?) into the mid-1920s?"

If you are talking from a rest of the world perspective, then that's probably true. As far as the UK is concerned, the "boom" began in the early 1890's.

Fair enough. Following up on your next answer, however, it's reasonable to say that the majority of clubs available today are from 1905 to 1930, and the courses available to play on are at least somewhat amenable to playing with the tools of that era.

And the ProV1 is a pretty good replacement for the 1.62" balls of the day. IMHO.

Tony said ;
"I do think there’s room to further improve the Hickory experience, but you do need to find the right course to do it. Last year at Hoylake I played a round with Ran using his Hickories and a Pro V1. I’m an average hitter, but I was using modern clubs, and he was keeping up."

Totally agree. Having only had an involvement with hickory play for some 12 years I'll admit that I still have a lot to learn - but so do others ! Right from the start of my hickory adventure, I've strived to "encourage and introduce" golfers into the world of the olde game. Unfortunately, there are others who consider themselves "organised" and who are known to have chased golfers away with their philosophy of "hickory golf" !

Hickory golf is not (IMO) about knowing all the history, the balls, the clubs, or having some 50% infatuation with "authenticity" ! It's about getting people to go out and have a shot, have some fun, and hopefully learn from that experience.

For the average golfer, true authenticity is unpractical and unrealistic to attain because of the balls for play....and the quality of the course to play upon !

That appears to be the crux of it. I can play 1915-style golf on my home course, which was opened that year. And although the growth of trees and the addition of irrigation has muddled things a bit, at least it's within reason.

Ralph said ;
"The majority of the golf played is 1905-1931 and that is what is refered to as hickorygolf."

Ralph,
Can you clarify this statement and explain your definition of "hickorygolf" ? 1905 - 1931 ?

In regard to your reference about the "floater" ball, may I just point out for any readers, that this ball should not be confused with the UK definition of the floater (circa 1848 - early 20th century) which was made of gutta percha and essentially - floated in water. The term "sinker" was also used for the ones that didn't float

I believe he's referring to the fact that the oversized ball would also float. A modern 1.68-1.62 ball nearly floats, and only small changes in weight or diameter will get it to float.

Alfie.

« **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:38:37 AM »

I prefer to play old Titleist balatas or Professionals -- I love the clean, deadened click of a well-struck ball with the hickories and the balatas seem to do that better than most. I also play a Hogan or ProV1 at times, but still prefer the balatas when I can find them.

« **Reply #23 on:** May 01, 2007, 11:10:18 AM »

Ralph,
Although wound balls and balatas deteriorate over time, they don't lose much. I read a piece wherein some 10 year old balatas were tested at Far Hills and they had only lost about 1% of their resiliency.

From my own experience I would say that the % they lose is very little when using a short iron and a bit more when progressing up the set. Also, someone who hits the ball very hard will experience a larger differential than someone with an average swing.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2007, 12:29:59 PM »

Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on May 01, 2007, 11:10:18 AM

Ralph,
Although wound balls and balatas deteriorate over time, they don't lose much. I read a piece wherein some 10 year old balatas were tested at Far Hills and they had only lost about 1% of their resiliency.

From my own experience I would say that the % they lose is very little when using a short iron and a bit more when progressing up the set. Also, someone who hits the ball very hard will experience a larger differential than someone with an average swing.

I am working from memory here but I recall that golf digest did a test in the 1990's and found the balls deteriorated a couple of percent a year. The upstroke was teh better player should get new balls every year

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