The Best Kind of Alternative Course

« **on:** April 28, 2007, 12:38:42 AM »

The topic on short courses brought this to mind.

Last night I had dinner with a potential new client who wants us to build a course for his new summer resort project. The resort is very family-oriented ... cottages by the lake, fishing, week-long stays, plus some owners whose families will stay all summer. There will eventually be something like 400 units in all.

Unfortunately, I'm looking at the topo map today and it is clear he doesn't have room for a regulation 18 holes on the property he has set aside for golf. That being the case, which would you most enjoy as a summer visitor or resident with your family?

a) The best nine-hole regulation course possible.
b) A great par-3 course and practice facility.
c) A very short 18-hole course (maybe 5000 yards par 65, I haven't tried to see what fits).

« **Reply #1 on:** April 28, 2007, 12:47:37 AM »

looking at this from the visitor point of view Tom:

not a), ..if it's regulation that 's too long for most kids

b? maybe...but not sure how many people would use the practice facility

so I go with c...sounds short enough for most everyone, especially if you put at least 3 sets of tees on each hole

hopefully you could have the 9th come back to the clubhouse so that people can play only 9 easily if they'd like

« **Reply #2 on:** April 28, 2007, 12:50:06 AM »

If it’s a family orientated resort, I would prefer a lovely little short course, whether a par 3 course or a short par 65.

Most resort golf is aimed at middle aged men. Many resorts boast about their 7000 yard + monsters. Of course, none of these courses suit the entire family, even if played off shorter tees. My wife is not a golfer, but she has had a few games when we have found a suitable course on holidays & she has enjoyed it. My son is almost 7 years old & just getting into golf. All I wish is that there was a well designed & maintained short course for him to have a hit at.

If it’s a family resort, then it should cater for the family. Preferably with something that was well designed & well thought out.

« **Reply #3 on:** April 28, 2007, 12:51:25 AM »

Off the top of my head, I would lean towards a 5000 yard, 18 hole course. Wouldn't it be great if the land was well suited to build several holes in the 225-325 yard range? Add in a few 100-150 yard holes, plus 2 or 3 in the 450-500 range...that would be neat.

In my opinion, 300 and 500 yard holes have to have some width to them, so you can think about bombing away with a long club.

I suppose the lay of the land will dictate the direction that you ultimately go. Is it a nice piece of property?

« **Reply #4 on:** April 28, 2007, 12:52:07 AM »

Quote from: P Thomas on April 28, 2007, 12:47:37 AM

so I go with c...sounds short enough for most everyone, especially if you put at least 3 sets of tees on each hole

hopefully you could have the 9th come back to the clubhouse so that people can play only 9 easily if they'd like

In support of that, my son only has 9 holes in him, so if the 9th could come back to the clubhouse, that would be perfect.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:15:23 AM »

John:

I am not sure there is room enough for 18 holes of any length more than par-3's. They have 200 acres but 100 of them are too steep. It will take a bit more than an hour on the map to see what fits, so far I only can tell what doesn't fit.

I haven't been there yet but one of my associates has visited and loved the setting ... a hilltop sandy site overlooking the lake, and mountains beyond.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:18:29 AM »

Tom,

I've always wondered if a truly great 18 holes could be built on a 9 hole layout. That is, double greens with multiple tees, but the same basic routing. If you had 9 holes that were like 9 and 10 at Pacific, you could play them as tremendously different holes. Is there a course out there that really fits that bill?

If that is not a possible, then I think "C" would be my choice.

I'm very curious to see how this turns out...

Thanks, Jeff

« **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:19:00 AM »

Tom,

I really enjoy playing your short par 4s. If you designed a course with 6-8 short Par4s and 6-8 par 3s, I would think it would be the most memorable for you IMO. Other designers might be better building a par 3 course.

What about other options?
-Building as many holes as fits? A 12 or 15 hole course? Would that take your desire not to conform a bit too far?

« **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:21:24 AM »

Tom

Go for the short course. There are more than enough examples of very fun and challenging courses in the ~5000yd range to know that it can be done. Painswick and Aberdour come immediately to mind.

Two returning nines would be ideal, and I would unbalance them. One could be 3000 yards, par 35 and the other 2000 yards par 30, so the kids and beginners could have a 9 to play and the more serious players could have competitions over the longer 9 played twice.

A man of your skill and imagination could do something really interesting with this idea.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:22:49 AM »

I like John Kirk's idea. Sounds like a Lincoln Park type of course.

It's interesting how 3 or 4 full-length holes make the rest of the course feel more legitimate - maybe one par-5 and a couple of par-4's over 350.

I've played two par-3 courses with lots of full length (>150 yard) holes and they feel very difficult. (Think of the short courses on the RTJ Trail.) It's also hard to create much variety because the holes are such similar lengths and all the same par. I wouldn't think this is the way to go as I'm sure your client wants just the opposite - variety and pleasantness.

A small range would be nice but I bet a huge putting green - maybe even one of those putting courses? - would be a better family vacation-type attraction.

What about a 12-hole course? We all talk about what a good idea they would be...

« **Reply #10 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:24:14 AM »

Me thinks the topo decides...

« **Reply #11 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:32:04 AM »

Tom check and see how the Audubon park redo is being recieved in New Orleans. It is close to your C. I like that best as well. You can load it up with fun 3's and 4's.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:36:29 AM »

Tom,

With 100 useable acres, is it possible to put in a regulation 9 or close to it, as well as a 9 hole par 3 course?

Then both the hardcore adults and the kids will have somewhere to play...

« **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:36:29 AM »

Tom,

Personally I think an interesting 9-Hole golf course with some long and short Par 4’s can still be very interesting.

Over the years I’ve played some great 9-Holes and if they are interesting enough I’ll play them 3 times in the same day.

It doesn’t need to be a Par 36. 4x Par 3, 4x Par 4 (at least 2 long ones) and a Par 5 giving a Par 33 can still reveal a great game of golf.

You should still have plenty of room left to put in a practise facility with lot’s of different practice greens and a driving range to cater for the beginners.

« **Reply #14 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:36:36 AM »

Two courses.

One the best 9 holer in the world.

The other the best pitch and putt in the world (in Ireland the rule is no hole over 70 metres).

« **Reply #15 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:40:59 AM »

For a family resort, the most fun thing would be a nine-hole short course that kids could play with their parents. It should have:

- A lot of water to hit over, but alternative routes that are puttable. Maybe some streams that are really shallow and totally playable.

- Really short tees for kids, like 75 yds.

- Crazy greens (how about a pond in the middle of a green. That'd be pretty cool.) Maybe a ramp that you could putt over the pond...

- Very few or no sand traps

- Golf carts (a real must, actually)

- Chipping and putting practice areas that are fun

And it should be nice and cheap.

Basically a grass covered putt-putt course with some real golf value thrown in.

Oh - another crazy idea: parallel holes where you could race each to see who can get the ball in the hole first...

Stuff like that.

I know this sounds nutty or sarcastic, but I've played a lot of pitch and putts with my 2 boys (both under age 10).

I'd go to a resort just for this type of course...

BTW, Driving the carts is a real important thing. And I'm a person who hates carts and always walks when I play with adults...

« **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:41:31 AM »

FRankly TD, you should stop in Green Bay and take a look at Rick Jacobson's original 9 holes around an old sand mine at Thornberry Creek. It is a double green, multiple tee affair, that plays about 31-3200 from tips with many variations to set up. It is clever and offers the chance to go around twice using different tees and the other green which are designed to provide different approaches and playing strategies. I like it.

It plays well for a low handicapper using back tees and perhaps carrying a sunday bag of 7-9 clubs, and the forwards are very suitable for ladies and juniors. It is a very family oriented design where all can have a good round.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 28, 2007, 02:20:10 AM »

I agree with Tony. The core ought to be a great nine hole course, ideally with alternate tees to provide variety and a couple 4.5 holes and at least one 3.5 which may be played as par 4/5 or par 3/4. Check out the harmongolf.com site: golf campus - course and campus layout. On 100 acres, there's a nine hole course plus a nine hole short course plus putting and chipping and bunker and wedge practice areas, heated driving bays on the full shot range, a fitness complex and a bar with a choice of draft on tap. Sounds like paradise to me. Also, I think the short course concept is more family friendly than a par 3 course as it is more enjoyable for beginners of all ages, while at the same time may be very, very enjoyable for the accompished player wanting to play at his or her short game.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 28, 2007, 04:19:57 AM »

I'd think a short course that could be played by kids and wives who really aren't good or regular players, so there aren't too many places where the ball is lost or they can't play their way out of, so something like a 4000 yard 18 hole course.

In order to still provide some challenge to the real golfers who might be playing with their families on that course, rather than having them waiting on the tee of every hole under 300 yards, you could have some hickories and gutta perchas for rent. Or if some of the Cayman balls Nicklaus experimented with in the 80s are still out there, get some of those. Since you are buddies with Jack now maybe he get you a good deal on some if there are still a few truckloads gathering dust in a McGregor warehouse somewhere

« **Reply #19 on:** April 28, 2007, 04:28:43 AM »

I'd vote for (a) the best 9-hole course possible. Given your expertise, it would likely allow me to accomplish two vacation objectives:

1) Spend quality time with my family.
2) Play a fun, challenging layout.

« **Reply #20 on:** April 28, 2007, 05:00:45 AM »

Tom,

Here is a creative way of fitting a hole in when not much land is available. A couple of these might help you get 18 holes onto the property.

Even if the rest of the course is not near the lake, players could cart down to the water fora couple of these holes in the middle of the round and then cart back up the hill for the rest of the round. Would provide a great view from the lakeside cottages as well.

« **Reply #21 on:** April 28, 2007, 05:39:21 AM »

Tom

Please do not be swayed by the siren songs above looking for "greatness" a la the Dunes Club or Royasl Worlington and Newmaket.

As I read what you wrote, this project is for families, not GolfCourseAnoraks.com type of people. Think about melding the best 9 holes at Elie with the 9 holes of Anstruther or the old Struie at Dronoch.

A lot of creativity involves restraint. You can do it.

« **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2007, 06:39:24 AM »

Tom,

A prominent family has the perfect set up in northern Wisconsin. Awesome nine hole course that is short, quirky and unconventional. It's been there since 1920-something. One of the family members built another nine that is closer to regulation next to the original, but the original nine is what I would strive for. It would be awesome for kids to learn how to play golf with parents and grandparents......

Joe

« **Reply #23 on:** April 28, 2007, 06:43:56 AM »

9 hole course with alternate tees. Huge practice putting green where all the kids can hang out. Extensive practice facility.

« **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2007, 07:10:07 AM »

Maybe a full length 12 hole course comprised of a 6 hole loop and two three hole loops that all tie back to a common point.
You could then mix up the 'nines' for variety.

The six hole loop could also incorporate some internal tees and greens on the sides of the longer holes so it could play as a 9 hole par three course.....you could also do this on the other two three hole loops to create an 18 hole par three or executive type course.

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