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Matthew Schulte

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Bandon Crossings
« on: April 26, 2007, 10:45:10 PM »
Bandon Crossings is said to be opening this summer.  Below are some photos from their website.  It will be interesting to see how many people will be willing to forego an additional round at one of the Bandon Dunes courses in lieu of playing here.  According to the website, the 18 hole summer rate will be $70.










David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2007, 10:55:11 PM »
Matthew -

Please refresh my memory. Is this course separate from the Bandon/Pac Dunes resort? How far away is it? Who is the owner/operator? Who was the GCA on this course?

DT

Matthew Schulte

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 11:00:10 PM »
Bandon Crossings is not affiliated with Bandon Dunes.  As I understand it, Bandon Crossings is about 5 miles south of Bandon and roughly 1.5 miles inland from the ocean.  It was designed by Portland based Dan Hixson.  Prior to his career in golf course architecture, Hixson was a golf professional at Columbia-Edgewater Country Club.  It will not be walking only.  Construction costs are reportedly estimated at around $2 million.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 11:17:29 PM by Matthew Schulte »

Jeff Doerr

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2007, 12:14:54 AM »
I'll be interested to see how this fits into the rota for those on the Bandon trip. It may move a few of the folks away from the standard stop at Sandpines in favor of a warmup round at a new venue.

The story piece on the website is a good report on the project.

http://www.bandoncrossings.com/Bandon%20Crossings%20Story.pdf

Having it built by Tony Russell has to be a big plus.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2007, 01:59:38 AM »
I just came back from there.  I would have loved to see this new course, but ran out of time and didn't understand exactly where it was at in relation to the town of Bandon.  

I hope the new course offers a good design quality and a reasonable alternative to Bandon Resorts.  The 'second bite of the apple' marketing strategy may just work.  I like the background story of the new developers.

As an example of potential success for an alternative course, here I went, all the way out there to Bandon from Wisconsin, and ended up deciding on a personal level not to pay the excessive freight to play or stay at Bandon Resorts.  For reasons of timing in the year of coming out of winter not having played in months and not likely being able to break 100 at any Bandon Resorts course, and what I feel is excessive cost per round at Bandon, I decided to draw the line on price and not pay that much to play or stay at Bandon Resorts.  

I would have paid ~50-75 for an interestingly designed alternative course like this one may be at Bandon Crossing.  

I would have paid ~100 to play a twilight time rate or slow weekday shoulder season at BR.  But, Bandon Resorts apparently has its line on pricing and target market, and I have my line on cost and value, and this was a point where those two concepts don't intersect in my world and is a deal breaker for me.  Maybe it will turn out to be a good thing for the 'second bite of the apple' guy.

I would note that the Bull at Pinehurst Farms (Nicklaus design), which is across the hwy from Black Wolf Run, is a similar 'second bite of the apple' course.  It charges about half the going rate as Kohler.  They seem to be thriving as well.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Erdmann

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2007, 05:37:10 PM »
Dan Hixson must hang around this site, as he's listed as a financial contributor.  I'd love to hear Dan comment on the course!

rjsimper

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 05:39:25 PM »
The single best investment this course could make is to buy a couple shuttle buses and offer free service to and from the resort.

Garland Bayley

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2007, 05:51:32 PM »
Dan Hixson must hang around this site, as he's listed as a financial contributor.  I'd love to hear Dan comment on the course!

If he is a member he is not registered with Hixson in his user name. If he is a member, I would like to hear from him.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Dunne

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2007, 05:52:07 PM »
Ryan, I'm not sure Mike Keiser would endorse that idea. (But you're probably right...)

Michael Dugger

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2007, 09:39:15 PM »
Gents,

I drove around the project last time in Bandon.  The course is about 5 miles south of town right off the main road.  It is simple to get to.

The esteemed Mr. Slag Bandoon has toured the course, he said it looks like it is going to be pretty cool.

From their website you can gather a couple of things about the place.  One, it is an out and back routing with a very interesting sequencing of holes.

front nine
4,4,4,5,5,3,4,4,3

back
4,3,5,5,3,4,4,3,5

The following .pdf has a lot of cool material on the project

http://www.bandoncrossings.com/Bandon%20Crossings%20Story.pdf

I think the course is going to be sweet, it will appeal to those who want a break from the demanding walk that is BD, PD and BT because they will be offering carts.

Yet, it still looks wild and wooly, a certain ruggedness appears to have migrated over from the Bandon Dunes Resort via the craftsmanship of Tony Russell, which is cool.    
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 10:17:07 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Pete_Pittock

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Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 01:11:06 PM »
Soft opening is on Wednesday, July 18th. Details on their website. Please IM me if you may attend.

http://www.bandoncrossings.com/
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 02:19:47 AM by Pete_Pittock »

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -8
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 01:17:05 PM »
Looks like they are trying as much as possible to differentiate from the Resort, other than the obvious way with price.

"The course will play to 7,000 yards from the back tees and feature a course that winds through trees and also has a links feel. Bandon Crossing is five miles south of town along Highway 101 and 10 miles from the resort. Its inland location will give golfers a chance to take a break from the typical summer-time winds that envelop the Oregon Coast."

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2007, 12:18:50 AM »
This will be interesting for I do not see much of the BD over flow market as Dick describes his visit. However I could be very wrong. It would have to be a hell of a golf course to get me off those other 3 soon to be 4 courses. I mean I would have to be there almost a week to even consider it.  

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2007, 12:22:29 AM »
I did play the Bull and left Whistling Straits to go play Lawsonia Links and Erin Hills. However the WS set of courses does not even begin to compete with the BD courses or experience on any level. I will walk on hot coals to play Pacific Dunes and the WS courses seem overpriced at industry rates lol.

Joel_Stewart

  • Total Karma: -13
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 12:31:26 AM »
This will be interesting for I do not see much of the BD over flow market as Dick describes his visit. However I could be very wrong. It would have to be a hell of a golf course to get me off those other 3 soon to be 4 courses. I mean I would have to be there almost a week to even consider it.  

I agree and I doubt that most of the visitors at Bandon will have time to go there?   I doubt Mike is worried about the financial impact at Bandon Dunes.

In order to be succesful, the course is going to have to develop its own personality and following.  I'm not going to judge the course by the pictures but #2 & #3 seem fairly lacking?

Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2007, 12:33:22 AM »
The real target is the local population. Most can't afford to play the Bandon resort courses very often, even if tee times were available. Lets face it, the area competition isn't very good.

Jim Adkisson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2007, 09:23:14 AM »
The real target is the local population. Most can't afford to play the Bandon resort courses very often, even if tee times were available. Lets face it, the area competition isn't very good.


Peter, just what I was thinking...the locals, especially all of the new golf-nut locals will play the Crossings quite often...all of the caddies, "dune monkeys" er course marshalls and staff at the resort must have a tough time getting in free golf at the resort when the weather is good and paying customers are stuffed into every 10 minute slot of the day.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -8
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2007, 10:36:41 AM »
I would also add 1 more component to this.

Not everyone who goes to Bandon is able to walk 54 holes in one day, and even many of those would have a tough time walking 36 in a day.  I could see this as an afternoon round to "ride" after walking 18 in the morning.

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -3
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2007, 11:54:31 AM »
I would also add 1 more component to this.

Not everyone who goes to Bandon is able to walk 54 holes in one day, and even many of those would have a tough time walking 36 in a day.  I could see this as an afternoon round to "ride" after walking 18 in the morning.

We spent 7 days at Bandon 2 years ago, and if Bandon Crossings is good, we would love a day in the middle riding a cart.

Our next trip will be in 2010 when "Old McDonald" opens.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 11:55:43 AM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Joe Bentham

Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2007, 01:57:55 PM »
The crossings won't take any business away from the resort.  The average guest @ Bandon hardly realizes there is a town of Bandon let alone other Golf in the area to play.  As for the local market, those of us interested in golf already have the best playing privileges in the world at THE golf resort.  I've played 3 full rounds this week, as well as 9 on Bandon night before last and 14 @ Pac last night.  And I've worked all week as well.  We'll play the crossings in the mornings on days off, but free golf at the resort will always trump a round I have to pay for (no matter what kind of deal the cut us) at a lesser (although what I've seen so far I like) course.  Resort guests second round is half price, which means they aren't paying that much more then a round at the crossings would cost them.  

Mike Erdmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2007, 02:22:08 PM »
Bandon Crossings' architect Dan Hixson was kind enough to email me a ton of information about the course back in late April.  I was in Scotland/Ireland at the time and when I got back I neglected to share the information here on this thread (my apologies to Dan!).  Course sounds quite interesting, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing it when I'm in Bandon in the next few weeks.

Hello Mike Erdmann,

Thanks for your interest shown about Bandon Crossings and myself.  You are correct; I have contributed my $71 (par at CE) to GCA.  I enjoy reading the site frequently.  I am not a member of the website, but like OPB and public radio if I am using it a lot I like to contribute.  I am very busy with my design business, many other interests and life, so just reading others opinions is enough from the great site.  I personally can talk about golf courses, design and whatnot until I am blue in the face and everyone around me as well.  I just choose not to put my opinions out into the big online world.  I tend to learn a lot more listening (reading) and thinking than trying to sound intelligent via the internet (probably because of an IQ near my contribution amount).  

About Me
BC is my first full course to be built.  I have designed 2 others with one to start in September in Walla Walla, and the other in the Reno area and may or may not ever be built.  Both are with housing.  Up to now I have done remodeling projects; Riverside, CE, Portland GC, Emerald Valley, Resort at the Mountain and others, about 15 times a shovel has moved dirt for my designs.  I am only a one man operation, as I know many people much smarter than I that can fill in any area I lack knowledge.

About Bandon Crossings
The site of BC is excellent.  It includes open rolling pasture lands, bottomlands (about 40’lower) and coastal forests.  Only about 20 acres were cleared of trees and brush.  Approximately 80% of the golf course lies with no shaping at all.  We mowed, sprayed, tilled, sand capped and seeded these areas.  The other 20% of the ground we shaped to build the course, where several ridges were reduced to create sightlines and to generate materials for other feature construction, tees greens and bunkers.  The natural drainage features were never altered and fortunately we have pure sand underneath our topsoil, sometimes 2’ below, sometime 8’.  We were able to construct our greens in the same method used at Bandon Resort, pure sand and virtually no drainage. This method allows an unbelievable freedom in the design.  The greens were built by removing all topsoil, sandstone, red shot and clay until we reached pure sand.  We then imported more sand from one of our borrow pits, essentially flip flopping the materials.  The dozer shaper Brian Felton would then, while I was with him, create the shapes I had designed.  After he was done I would spend anywhere from 2 hours to 2 days per green on a sand pro “playing” to build the details that you see so often on sand based courses, but not on USGA greens.  This improvisational method is ridiculously fun for someone like me who has never worked on straight sand, and the creative process really opens up.  

Tony Russell (brother of Troy, head of Agronomy at BD) was our contractor.  If you don’t know, Tony is one of the very best with an excavator building bunkers in the world.  Having worked with Doak’s group at Pac, Pasa, Claremont, Seabonack and with Coore and Crenshaw and Jeff Bradley on Trails, his knowledge and skills are way up. This was Tony’s first full golf course as contractor.  Needless to say this has been a very good deal for me.  I would flag a bunker with irrigation flags, give Tony a few brief thoughts (deep, shallow, flashy etc) and let him go.  I was amazed at his skills of not only operating the machine but mostly his artistry in the details, all while fully understanding how the bunker and the area around would drain.  After the second bunker of the 63 on the course, I was pretty sure I had the best man for the job.  I would only rarely have him change anything on a bunker, and I can honestly say most came out better than I had envisioned or drawn.  He is awesome.  On top of that and more importantly, we have become great friends and I only hope I can get him and crew to build some of my future projects.  I can’t divert enough credit to Tony’s experience in building, his good eye, and using him as a sounding board for ideas.

As far as describing the design, I certainly feel that most on GCA would consider it minimalist.  I don’t know, what the term means any more, and I certainly did not build anything to fit that name.  I think the course is very simplistic, and certainly not over done.  Anything bold is what the land gave us.  Much of my early designs (remodels) were somewhat copies of the best features of what ever course I was designing on, hardly minimalism.  Virtually every bunker here was built into an existing upslope, with an occasional hidden bunker behind a green to stop balls from worse.  Only 2 greens were lifted, about 4 feet, and that was for drainage (actually flood control) on the two greens in the bottomlands.  A few others were lifted a foot or so, and one was lowered by about 3 feet.  The rest were about on grade.  An interesting routing came about because of the shape of the land and features with back to back par 5’s, twice.  Holes 4 and 5, and then 12 and 13 along with 18 are par fives.  They range from 500-600 from the tips.  The five par 3’s range from 150 to 235, and the par 4 range from 325 to 455.   The result is a par 72 just under 7000 yards.  On the fifth hole we built an alternate green that will be used for occasional play, thus making a 9 hole card without going into the bottomlands.  No hole even remotely resembles another, and the natural beauty of the site is great.  There are a few off-site eyesores and power lines along the 4th hole but…you can’t always have the Pacific as a border.  

Many of the bunkers will have native edges on the non-play side tying into the native foliage.  A portion of the course (holes 6 through 14) moves in and out of a forest made up of mainly Firs, Madrones, Pines, Cedars, Rhodies, Huckleberries and other various coastal species.  The grasses on site were of a pasture variety with almost everything imaginable.  The greens were seeded with A-4 bent, fairways and tees with Rye and the rough with a rye fescue mix.  Momentarily we considered the same turf as BD but it was very clear the fescue could not with stand golf carts.  The cart paths (only around greens and tees) were built after all the holes were complete.  They are gravel and seeded with a grass strip between the tire tracks.  The concept was to build them to look like the previous farmer had built those years ago.

I was given as close as possible to 100% artistic license on everything about this course as the owner felt very comfortable with me, the time I had spent on the ground, the routing plan, green details and the early holes that were built.  I doubt if I build 20 more courses in my life that I will ever have that freedom to build a course with only a very short design program, which was:
•   par 72
•   near 7000 yards
•   fun to play
•   within our budget
While our budget was very small by modern standards, I am not sure what we would have done different with more money.  I think the budget forced me and everyone involved to get creative many times when more money simply could have made things easier.

I say all this about the course from a very non-objective position.  I have been on site 173 days on 58 trips (so far) from my home office in Portland.  With this many trips and days on-site and I am far to in love with the course to even try and quantify its quality.  It has been a real joy to show it to many golf professional friends and family and the response has been overwhelmingly good.  The owners are very happy and excited with the completion of construction and the work done by myself, Tony and crew and Brant Hathorn (superintendent) and his crew.  Everyone worked very hard, and watching the grow-in and see the thing turn into a golf course has been life altering for me.  Mike I would love to tell you how great it is, but that is not really my thing.  I hate self promotion even though this business forces one to do that time to time. I didn’t leave CE 8 years ago to just build courses to just make a check.  Hopefully when you and everyone else that will play Bandon Crossing, will have those feelings we golf crazy people can get from a great golf course.  A course is only as good as those that play it think, not what I say.

As you see I have rambled on and on and it is getting late.  I had decided long ago if Bandon Crossings was a topic on GCA and someone asked to find out more about it from me I would respond to the first, and that happened to be you.  Fortunately (or unfortunately maybe) you had your email on your profile.  You can do anything you would like with any or all of the information as you see fit.  Please be respectful that I am not interested in promoting myself, I want my work to do that.  Word of mouth is the best marketing of a designer. I have made my business from zero to what it is today by that alone.  However I am totally committed to helping the owners to have a very successful golf operation and creating interest through a gca website is welcomed.

Thanks again,

Dan Hixson
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 02:23:42 PM by Mike_Erdmann »

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -3
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2007, 05:05:31 PM »
Very well written, can't wait to see pictures and play it  :)
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Daryl David

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2007, 09:22:16 PM »
I know Dan expressed his reluctance to post here, but I sure hope he changes his mind.  I really enjoyed his note and will definitely check out BC on my next trip to Bandon.  Would also like to know about the project in Walla Walla.  

Dan, if you are lurking, don't be concerned about appearing to be self promoting.  We will cut you some slack if you get over excited about one of your projects.  We are used to it.

Scott Weersing

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2007, 11:42:42 PM »
I can't think of many good courses with back to back par fives. So that would be one mark against the course for me. I would rather have back to back par 3 holes.

I hope the course drains wells or there will be tire ruts in the damp areas.

I doubt it will play fast and firm but it could be fun.

Matt_Cohn

  • Total Karma: 9
Re:Bandon Crossings
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2007, 02:04:06 AM »
It would be interesting to see if the unusual sequencing feels like a natural progression of the routing, or if it seems a bit contrived as an homage to nearby Pacific Dunes.

I haven't played any of the golf courses in question so I'll only raise the question at this point.