Tiger:

In the last couple of months I became aware of something pretty interesting regarding the punchbowl green of Mountain Lake. Of course by that I mean the original punchbowl green that no longer exists.

The punchbowl green that's there now is Brian Silva's. The green that preceded Brian's green was not a punchbowl but the original Raynor punchbowl green at Mountain Lake has some very interesting history.

It was in fact the model or prototype on which Raynor created the ultra-cool punchbowl green at The Creek Club in Long Island that's the coolest green on that course and one of the most interesting greens anywhere, in my opinion.

The Creek's is a punchbowl but it does have an open front (of sorts) probably because the hole has always been app 450 yards long although straight downhill.

So of course the real question becomes what was the original Raynor punchbowl green at Mountain Lake like? Are there any photos or original plans of it anywhere?

I certainly made the Mountain Lake Green Chairman aware of this history and we plan on following up on the research if there's anything out there somewhere.

I did have a recommendation to make that present Mountain Lake punchbowl green a bit more interesting in play but that was a few years ago and I can't remember right now exactly what that recommendation was. I think it had something to do with expanding the slight circular rise in the back half of the green.

Bob:

I'm glad you mentioned the punchbowl at Longshadow.

It certainly proves the various ways a clever architect can alter or reutilize a basic architectural concept (in this case the basic punchbowl shaped green)----with the iteration at Longshadow on a long par 3.

The fine thing about Mike's Longshadow punchbowl is most of the back half of the massive green works as something of a bolster and probably a filter back effect which makes perfect strategic sense on such a long shot.

How big did he say that thing was? Was it 15,000 sf?

Saddle Creek in Nor Cal has a punchbowl green on number 15 that is fun to play.  The hole is fairly short, 340 from the whites, 370 from the blacks. The fairway sits in a saddle and pinches down as it gets closer to the green. The 1st half of the green is open and can accept a run up shot, while a shot to the back part of the green is completely blind.  

I don't like the idea of a short approach to a punchbowl green. I think it works best on a longer par 3 or long 4.

I'm a big fan of the 5th at Wild Horse. A shortish two shotter. Not only did Dan & Dave hide the narroness off the tee, they balanced it with the punchbowl green, gaurded by that marvelous convex bunker.

Tiger,

Great gca question.  I love discussing this type of theory, absent of the "you must fit the land" which is a given, of course.

I suppose it depends on what you think a punch bowl should bring to a course.  I tend to use them on:

1. par 3's as a concept shot
2. Long approaches to increase target size
3. To compensate for a frontal hazard like creek or bunker or steep bank, to give the golfer an option to play long and still hit the green.

It seems to me that on a short par 4, the approach is easy enough and perhaps made easier.  That said, if a course cried out for a breather hole, a punch bowl on a short 4 would be a nice addition.

Mike Young's Punchbowl at Longshadow is terrific.

At 210, slightly uphill, the massive Puchbowl 17th works beautifully.

Bob

For an opportunity to have a first hand look at the Long Shadow punchbowl, keep an eye on GCA.com for the formal announcement of Dixie Cup 4.  

Tiger, you will be able to play a very interesting modern punchbowl May 5th at Pensacola Country Club.

#17 is a 455 yard par 4 (tips), 419 from the blues, with a cape-style tee shot over a lake, and second shot into a true punchbowl where it is great fun to watch the ball run up the firm slope and disappear.  

Here is a photo of #17 from the blue tee, with the punchbowl directly in front of the temporary cart barn (tented version).



See you weekend after next.

Tiger,

I don't think that there's a "perfect" punchbowl.
 
I've enjoyed the concept on a variety of holes, uphill, downhill, par 3, par 4 and par 5.

Montclair has a neat punchbowl at the foot of a dogleg par 5 that works exceedingly well.

It's a deep punchbowl with a two tier green the right side is open with a ramp for run-in shots, the left side is guarded by a good sized bunker.  The sides of the punchbowl are steep.

NGLA's punchbowl on a par 4 is neat because there are two flanking punchbowls in the fairway DZ as well as the green.

The Creek's is the hardest of the bunch because the green cants like a Redan.  The Creek also has a reverse Redan from an elevated tee on # 8 and a Redan like green on # 1, a par 4.

Essex County has a huge, neat punchbowl green on a par 4.

Morris County has a punchbowl on a par 3, although its configuration is not as severe as the others.

CBM, SR and CB seemed to like them, perhaps that's why that style repeats itself in their designs.

# 1 at Yale was supposed to be a combination punchbowl green as well.

While I've heard some architects shy away from them due to drainage issues, one has to question that motive as the 1st hole on the # 4 nine at Montclair, the 6th hole at The Creek and the 16th at NGLA don't appear to be ideal sites from a drainage perspective.

A "punchbowl" green can be a bold design, with severe confining slopes and interesting green configurations and contours/slopes.

I find them fascinating in terms of their genesis and I find them "sporty" to play.

I'd like to see more of them in modern designs.

When will the 12th at GCGC be restored to its punchbowl like appearance ?

Finally, when Yale restores its DOUBLE punchbowl 3rd green it will be a great golf hole.  A blind second towards the water to the largest green on the course.

Geoff, when was that photo taken?