Trevino or Ballesteros ?

« **on:** April 23, 2007, 08:29:53 PM »

Just wanted to see how people view these two giants in the game.

I see Trevino being ahead of Seve -- frankly it's more apart than many others may feel.

Can others share their comments and if you see Lee being ahead can you provide some sort of numerical figure on how far ahead -- for example -- from 1-5 with one being ahead by the slimmest of margins to 5 being ahead by considerable amount how would you assess these two players.

And, if you see Seve ahead please use the same numerical spread I already mentioned above.

Thanks ...

P.S. I give Trevino the edge with a 4 number -- his diversity of majors and overall record -- his complete dexterity as a shotmaker (no disrespect to Seve) as just two elements that give the Merry Mex the edge. Just one quick note -- I have the utmost respect for what Seve has done for golf -- specifically on the European side of things.

« **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2007, 08:33:10 PM »

Trevino by three...

« **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:01:04 PM »

Trevino giving Seve four

« **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:09:57 PM »

If they were playing a Mackenzie course (Augusta in the 70's and 80's, Royal Melbourne Composite at any time) then my money is on Ballesteros.

If the event was the US Open, then Trevino is the obvious choice.

If the event is The Open (British), then I want to be there to watch what will be a magnificent contest, full of thrills and spills, and great engagment by both of them with whatever the course offers on the day. That would have been a contest that had the potential to match the epic Watson vs Nicklaus at Turnberry in 1977.

Overall, yes Trevino, but the margin depends on where the event is played.

James B

« **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:28:36 PM »

I'm not sure I understand the scale but I agree that Trevino bests Seve. Nicklaus said Trevino was just behind Hogan as a shotmaker, which is a truly high compliment. Also Trevino beat Jack head to head in four of his six majors - how many guys can say that? I'd say 3.

Not to highjack Matt's thread, but how about Trevino/Watson?

« **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:32:50 PM »

Matt -

Other than their heritage, their multiple major championships and their sore backs, it is hard to imagine two more dissimilar championship golfers.

Seve hit the ball high, Lee hit the ball low.
Seve was a prodigy, Lee a late bloomer.
Seve relied on power, Lee played with control.

Those are just some of their differences. I would certainly take issue with the notion the Trevino was a better shotmaker than Ballesteros. When it comes to conceiving and executing a shot that required imagination and dexterity, Ballesteros would certainly be on the short list of all-time greats. Trevino might or might not make that list.

Living in the U.S., I don't think any of us here got a true look at the breadth and depth of Seve's talent and abilities in his prime.

My guess is that if you asked this question of Faldo, Norman, Langer, Woosnam, etc. you would get a very different answer than if you asked Strange, H. Green, Wadkins, Watson, etc.

I might give the edge to Trevino by 1, but it would only be because of his longer career.

DT

« **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:48:29 PM »

By the way, I seem to remember reading different articles written by Herbert Warren Wind that devoted multiple paragraphs to simply watching both Trevino and Ballesteros practice on the range. I am imagine he has written thru the years about watching other golfers practice, I cannot remember reading any other such passages.

Clearly, Wind was very impressed with the abilities, style and presence of both golfers.

« **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:51:40 PM »

i think it was in his 86 Masters article that Herb said Seve had the best practice session he ever saw

I'd give Trevino the nod because he was a much better driver off the ball...

« **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:55:42 PM »

Seve by 5.

Seve triumphed more on those courses that required imagination, daring, and great touch, like Augusta, The Old Course and Royal Melbourne, where Trevino spat the dummy over the boundary fence and into Victoria golf club across the road.

The US Open doesn't count for anything outside of the USA, and neither does the PGA, so only the Masters and British count.

If Trevino was such a fine shotmaker, why didn't he excell at Augusta? Because he liked his golf straighforward. Seve liked it anything but.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2007, 10:06:30 PM »

Quote from: P Thomas on April 23, 2007, 09:51:40 PM

i think it was in his 86 Masters article that Herb said Seve had the best practice session he ever saw

I'd give Trevino the nod because he was a much better driver off the ball...

Driver? Trevino was simply the best shotmaker who ever walked onto a course! THAT is his grace ...... far beyond even Seve.

Doug

« **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2007, 10:10:23 PM »

I am a big Seve fan. I would actually watch the Seniors if Seve played.

But Trevino wins 1-up

...

after 36.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM »

Mark,

To say the US Open means nothing outside the US is just, well, dumb.

To his discredit, Trevino skipped a few Masters Tournaments during his prime as he didn't particularly like the atmosphere there. I think it was Nicklaus and some others that persuded him to quit skipping the event.

While the PGA may not have as much prestige today, it is a fact that the four professional majors since at least 1960 (when Palmer revitalized an Open Championship that was itself becoming marginalized in importance) are (in order of age):

The Open Championship
The US Open Championship
The PGA Championship
The Masters Tournament

Seve knew damn good and well that the PGA and US Open were two of the "biggies"--he just couldn't win them. Of course, Seve showed great imagination and genius in winning at The Open and The Masters.

But, Trevino's winning of the Open also cemented his greatness and he also won US Open and PGAs mano a mano against (to date) the greatest ever. Yes, Trevino did not win a Masters but couldn't one say Seve "only" winning Opens and at Augusta showed he was kind of one dimensional--i.e. he couldn't win on on a course that demanded different strengths--driving, patience, strong mental toughness?

Also, did Trevino ever have a choke during the final round of a major anything close to Seve's collapse at the '86 Masters???

And as for longevity, Trevino at almost 70 today could give Seve 3 a side TODAY and whip his ass!!!

(Just a question but I wonder how many Masters Seve would have won on the "new" tighter more tree-lined Augusta?)

Anyway, both are greats and I can see someone favoring Seve over Trevino but to suggest the US Open and PGA don't matter is, well, you know...

PS Since the US Open and PGA don't count are you saying Jack has only 9 real major professional championships?!?!

« **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2007, 10:26:21 PM »

Trevino...2.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2007, 10:53:10 PM »

Matt
I'm not sure. But David T's answer is a good one, and the 'head to head' that James B mentions is worth imagining:

Trevino yapping in Seve's ear from the first tee, Seve trying to stay impervious, and imperious. Seve hitting shots out of the bunkers from his knees, Trevino still yapping at him from the middle of the fairway, hole after hole. Seve looking down his nose at Lee with contempt, Lee cracking wise with the gallery. Seve all concentration, recovering from a parking lot; Lee waiting on the green with an 8 foot birdie putt, whistling like he's on a stroll in the park. At the 18th tee, Trevino is still yapping, with Seve's English good enough that it's gotten to him. You can imagine him muttering: "La madre de Dios, este hombre están locos. El nunca para hablar. El está loco!"...and then spraying his drive into the gunk.

I'd give it to Lee, 1 up.

Peter

« **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:10:32 PM »

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM

(Just a question but I wonder how many Masters Seve would have won on the "new" tighter more tree-lined Augusta?)

Probably none, but surely that would count against the course, not Seve?

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM

Anyway, both are greats and I can see someone favoring Seve over Trevino but to suggest the US Open and PGA don't matter is, well, you know...

Possibly being a bit harsh, Chris, but the US Open is increasingly a freakshow, and the PGA only counts to the winner's mother.

Would Nick Faldo give up a single of his US Masters or Opens for a US Open? Would The Shark have rather won a US Open than Augusta?

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM

PS Since the US Open and PGA don't count are you saying Jack has only 9 real major professional championships?!?!

No, I guess you can count his US Opens, but not the PGAs, if only because that means Bobby Jones would have less than 13 Majors then, and that can't be allowed too happen.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:17:17 PM »

Has anyone duplicated Trevino's winning the US Open, The Open and the Canadian Open in a span of less than a month?

As exciting and flamboyant as Seve was in his prime the vote has to go to Trevino.

Bob

« **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:19:27 PM »

Quote from: Mark Ferguson on April 23, 2007, 11:10:32 PM

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
(Just a question but I wonder how many Masters Seve would have won on the "new" tighter more tree-lined Augusta?)

Probably none, but surely that would count against the course, not Seve?

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
Anyway, both are greats and I can see someone favoring Seve over Trevino but to suggest the US Open and PGA don't matter is, well, you know...

Possibly being a bit harsh, Chris, but the US Open is increasingly a freakshow, and the PGA only counts to the winner's mother. Would Nick Faldo give up a single of his US Masters or Opens for a US Open? Would The Shark have rather won a US Open than Augusta?

Quote from: Chris Cupit on April 23, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
PS Since the US Open and PGA don't count are you saying Jack has only 9 real major professional championships?!?!

No, I guess you can count his US Opens, but not the PGAs, if only because that means Bobby Jones would have less than 13 Majors then, and that can't be allowed too happen.

1. Your right that the changes on the course reflect how the course might discourage genius rather than reveal it. (Jack Nicklaus' birdie from the left trees in '86 would be damn near impossible today too!)

2. US Open=Freakish--maybe but things can change (see stature of The Open post 1960 and even more so post 1990). PGA, well....it's still hanging in there.

3. Only 13 pro majors for big Jack?! Oh well, I am still trying to convince people that The Amateur and US Amateur should still be majors so I think we should call it a night on this one

I do like/admire Seve. In the late 80's he was my favorite player--sad that he has had so many issues lately.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:21:53 PM »

Seve better right to left, Trevino better left to right.

Trevino better with a Dr. Pepper bottle.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:31:25 PM »

As one the biggest Trevino fans around, I thought initially this would be a slam dunk. But the more I reflect on each of their careers, it's very close -- perhaps a slight edge to Trevino, but not by much.

Interestingly, both made their initial marks in majors they didn't win -- Trevino in '67 at Baltusrol, where he was quite literally unknown and finished 5th; and Seve at Birkdale in 1976, where he led much of the way as a 19-year-old only to be trumped by Miller at the end.

Both won majors on some of the greatest courses hosting majors -- two at Augusta for Seve, plus his Old Course triumph over Watson (one of the great green scenes of all time); Trevino at Merion and Muirfield. Trevino never dominated a major like Seve did at Augusta in 1980 (he was up by 10 at the turn in the last round; flailed his way in to win by 4), but Seve was never consistently unerring like Trevino was at Oak Hill, with all four rounds in the 60s. Trevino stared down the great one at Merion in a playoff no less, but few golfing triumphs reverberated across golf the way Seve's win at Lytham did in '79; he nearly single-handidly reinvigorated European golf.

In the end, I give Trevino a slight edge, perhaps by one, because of having one more major and being consistently in contention at majors for a longer period of time. But Seve's impact on European golf -- and by extension the Ryder Cup -- makes it an awfully close call.

« **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:54:58 PM »

I'm just curious, why the obsession with rankings of near-equals?

Why try to pick between Cypress Point and Pine Valley? They are completely different but have wonderful characteristics that make them among the finest courses in the world.

To me it's the same with Seve vs Trevino. Why make that choice from near-equals? Just savor the fact that you were able to see each do what they did best - the swashbuckling scrambler Seve and the shotmaker Trevino. At their respective peaks there were few better at the game. But why the obsession to rank one above the other?

Just curious.

« **Reply #20 on:** April 23, 2007, 11:58:43 PM »

Didn't both Trevino and Ballesteros participate in a one club exhibition event that was staged at St. Andrews at some point in the 1980's? Does anyone remember that? Was it ever shown on TV in Britain?

As I recall, there were 10 or 12 participants and every one played a round at St. Andrews using just one club. I would love to see a tape of that!

« **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2007, 01:58:16 AM »

David

I recall seeing Norman and ballesteros. One took a 4-iron, the other a 5-iron. I also recall them playing bunker shots at the Old Course with those same clubs, and putting with them as well.

I also remember going to my club and trying (surprisingly succesfully) the 4-iron and 5-iron bunker shot.

I don't recall others that were involved in the event.

James B

« **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2007, 04:15:45 AM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on April 23, 2007, 08:29:53 PM

P.S. I give Trevino the edge with a 4 number -- his diversity of majors and overall record -- his complete dexterity as a shotmaker (no disrespect to Seve) as just two elements that give the Merry Mex the edge. Just one quick note -- I have the utmost respect for what Seve has done for golf -- specifically on the European side of things.

I'm a bit confused - how is Trevino's overall record of 45 career wins (excluding seniors) superior to Seve's 95 career wins?

Honestly, you Americans can be so blinkered at times - not one of you has said Seve. Seve was a true bona fide genius. There is not one European player of that era who does not speak of Seve in terms of awe - including the likes of Faldo, Langer, Lyle, Woosnam, Olazabal. Just because he didn't play much in the States shouldn't make you lose sight of what a great player he was - and remember when you devalue those European tour victories that the 5 people above were playing in most of them.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2007, 05:12:52 AM »

I had the pleasure of watching both of them in their prime. Trevino was by far the better striker of the ball in my opinion. In fact I’d say he was just about the finest of all time, although I never saw Hogan. I watched him hit 34 consecutive greens at St Mellion in I guess around 1980 and I saw him at The RAC club in the old Bob Hope celebrity thing. He made Brian Wates a former Ryder cupper look positively amateurish. I remember one shot on a long par three with a steep bank on the left and the pin cut close to it. Lee nailed a two iron at the bank and as soon as he hit he said “that’s perfect”. Sure enough the ball faded that requisite 10 foot and landed a softly as you could imagine. ‘Like a butterfly with sore feet’, I think was his expression. Then a couple of holes later he was able to hit the perfect draw up a long par five that chased forty yards past his playing partners. Seve was good but there’s no way he could have played shots like that with such control.

« **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2007, 05:21:34 AM »

Quote from: Peter Pallotta on April 23, 2007, 10:53:10 PM

Matt
I'm not sure. But David T's answer is a good one, and the 'head to head' that James B mentions is worth imagining:

Trevino yapping in Seve's ear from the first tee, Seve trying to stay impervious, and imperious. Seve hitting shots out of the bunkers from his knees, Trevino still yapping at him from the middle of the fairway, hole after hole. Seve looking down his nose at Lee with contempt, Lee cracking wise with the gallery. Seve all concentration, recovering from a parking lot; Lee waiting on the green with an 8 foot birdie putt, whistling like he's on a stroll in the park. At the 18th tee, Trevino is still yapping, with Seve's English good enough that it's gotten to him. You can imagine him muttering: "La madre de Dios, este hombre están locos. El nunca para hablar. El está loco!"...and then spraying his drive into the gunk.

I'd give it to Lee, 1 up.

Peter

Funny post Peter.

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