[Ran Morrissett]

On the positive side, he would be OBVIOUSLY very proud of the history of The Masters and of its traditions. He was certainly a fan of a course that was a thorough test - perhaps this would qualify as to what his definition of a thorough test was but also, perhaps it wouldn't

If Jones had wanted a tree lined torture chamber, would he have hired MacKenzie? I doubt it and I also doubt he would have selected this largely open site if that is what he had in mind.

Still, he certainly oversaw plenty of changes to MacKenzie's design. However, to the best of my knowledge, none of them took away the sense of spaciousness or the ability to invent shots. I personally think he envisaged a much hire form of golf, the very type that rendered the 1986 Masters and a host of golf's greatest moments.

What do you think? Would he be thrilled by what he is watching this week?

Cheers,

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From Chip Alexander of the News Observer as referenced in Geoff Shackleford's site:

Golf architect Tom Fazio, who oversaw the redesign of the course, noted there has been no rain this week -- a rarity the past 10 years, when there often have been storms and rain delays. Augusta National, he said, again was the golf test that Masters founder Bobby Jones intended it to be, with a premium on ball placement off the tee, wise club selection and sound course management.

"Everyone certainly was hoping to see it this way," Fazio said. "It's like a new golf course, because of the speed."

"It's a major. It's a major major."

Everyone? I guess he means Fred Ridley and Walter Driver.

[Jeff_Lewis]

He would love the firmness of the golf course.
He would love the firmness of the greens.
He would love the tradition and the respect of the tournament.
He would LOVE seeing Arnie as the honorary starter.

He'd be a bit perplexed by the narrowness.

Just my guess.

[Mike_Young]

On a Saturday nite he would think it looked like the best golfer was going to win....

[Mark Bourgeois]

I think Jones's sympathy of the changes would last as long as it took for him to see how The Old Course looked today, then wonder how his course could have changed so utterly in comparison...

[T.J. Sturges]

A follow up question would be: "What would Bob Jones have done to combat the changes in technology?"  An obvious theory is he could have developed a "Masters Tournament ball".  I believe he would have been a pioneer/leader in that area.  But...what else do you all think he would have done?

TS

[RJ_Daley]

I don't have any writings by Bobby Jones.  But, I'm sure several of the GCA posters do.  What, if anything did he have to say about tree infested courses?  He must have said something.

Is it co-incidence that Riviera (before so many trees matured) was the site of Jones' teaching films?  Didn't he win most of his tournaments on courses that bear no resemblance to the courses of mature trees that they are now?  What were his expectations of how a course should look and play relative to trees?

[Mike_Cirba]

Have any of you fellows taken the time to read anything written by Bobby Jones?

My lord, neither Karl Rove nor James Carville could spin these ludicrous changes as well as many of you have.  

[John Chilver-Stainer]

If he was playing and got a triple bogey 7 at the 11th -via the pine trees and a running shot into the water - he may have shown his derision and, with reminiscence of St.Andrews, torn up his card.  

[Gary Daughters]

I'm pretty certain Jones would look favorably upon the course vis-a-vis the one that had come to host what Sports Illustrated was calling the Augusta National Putting Contest and other such derisives.

[Brad Klein]

Great question, but I think the whole discussion is slightly misplaced unless we also think about what Jones might have to say about the USGA's role and how equipment has been allowed to evolve to this point.

Everything from driver clubheads, grooves, lob wedges that now enable you to spin it from downhill lies (think about Immelman's approach into 15 on Thursday), and distances. I think that the whole game at the elite level has deviated away from an emphasis upon angles and more upon placement into landing zones. A few of the great players with real imagination and deftness can still play the old way (Woods, Ogilvy, Olazabal) when needed, but too many of the contemporary golfers are playing one-dimensional golf and when "on their game" simply able to overpower a golf course.

[Rich Goodale]

I think Bobby would be proud, and would be more perplexed by how the Old Course set up has changed than Augusta's present look (much of which he oversaw).

[Steve_ Shaffer]

See Clifford Roberts quote referenced today at:

www.geoffshackelford.com

Game,set and match.

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Steve, but who won?

IMO, neither Jones nor Mackenzie would take anything Roberts said (particularly about them) without a very large grain of salt.

[Tom_Doak]

Ran:

If Bob Jones had WANTED Augusta National to be a "torture track" for the world's best players, whom do you think he would have hired to design it?

George Crump was dead, and Pete Dye was in the first grade.  I'm guessing he would have hired Dr. MacKenzie, who had expressed clear disdain for the attitudes of professional golfers.

I am not disagreeing with part of your premise -- Augusta National was intended by Jones to be a members' club first, and they have strayed far far away from that intent.  But don't you also think he wanted the course to be as challenging as it could be to great players within that first stricture?  And don't you think he hired MacKenzie because he thought he was the one architect who could give him both things at once?

[S. Huffstutler]

I think ol
 Bob would agree with me that they have finally succeeded in making that golf course unplayable. Too bad.

Steve

[wsmorrison]

I believe Bob Jones would think the confining trees that have been added need to go.  Given his apparent agreement with Behr, he may not have liked the rough.  I personally don't think it is bad and certainly not overly penal.  Some of the playing corridors are too narrowed (11 and 17).  The 7th is too long and I'd be surprised if he would approve of that lengthening.  

While some might think the course is too firm and the greens too fast, I don't believe that is the entirely the fault or the committees nor is it ruining the event.  Nature is causing the exceptionally firm conditions.  It has been extremely DRY in Georgia.  It is also quite cold.  I don't know when they could have watered the greens to manage the firmness.  They were watering a bit after play but that wouldn't effect conditions the next day.  Temperatures were under freezing the past two nights.  It was in the 20s overnight.  I don't see how they could water the greens or approaches to manage playability.  The combination of very firm, very dry and very windy makes any golf course tough.  When you throw in some of the pin positions being used, it was perhaps the most difficult golf course I have ever seen.  It would not have been unwelcome had they adjusted some of the pin positions to account for the conditions.  

The greens are amazing...it is going to take me a few days to consider them.  While many spoke of how considerable are the elevation changes, we're used to stuff like that in Pennsylvania.  The drop to 10 green is considerable but not unlike holes at Eagles Mere.   The effective rise of 18 isn't more than a number of holes in this area.  There is a big drop below the tee, but my guess is the tee isn't more than 20-30 feet below the landing area.  The rise from the LZ to the green wasn't what I expected either.  However, the GREENS are sprctacular, every one of them.

The ultra firm conditions caused a number of players to play ultra conservatively thus reducing the scoring spectrum on individual holes.  Players weren't taking risks.  Each day, maybe 5 players or less were trying to reach 15 green in two for instance.  However (and I have to think this through a bit more) wouldn't some strategy be enhanced by conditions inducing a player to take more club off the tee and have a shorter shot in?  Wouldn't it require shaping shots and altering strategies by bringing the ground game into play more on some holes given the wind and the firmness?

Tom Paul and I stood by the 14th green late in the day on Thursday and we started to see the greens firming up and aerial approach shots bounding over the green resulting in precise recovery requirements.  Some of the players figured it out and used the ground game but bogeys outnumbered pars by a wide margin.  I think out of 10 groups of 3 we only saw one birdie, a nice 20-footer by Vijay.  You could foresee at that point that things were going to get very difficult.  

[Gary Daughters]

Isn't the real question "What would Jones have done to toughen the golf course?" .. as it's near certain he wouldn't have stood idle as technology overwhelmed it?

I'll venture he would have said "yes" to firmness, but as we've seen it rarely occurs.  This year is an anomoly induced largely by the weather.

Added length would have been a "yes."  Jones would have been proud of the brutish #4.  Less so #7.

Trees?  Maybe a closer call than we'd like to think, but let's say Jones says "no."

So now you have a longer course that's still fairly wide that plays firm every 5 years.

To me the most intriguing question is what ELSE might Jones have done?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Re ball placement off the tee.

There's a difference between choosing the correct placement of the tee shot and having the correct position of the drive dictated by design.

The former is exemplified by St. Andrews; the latter by the typical set-up of US Open venues. I'm pretty sure Mr. Jones preferred the former.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I am not sure what he would think.  My guess would be that he would smile seeing some of the players think their way around the course.  He might also be pleased about the features on the ground that are in play.   Personally it is refreshing to see balls bound up to greens rather than just hit and stick.

[redanman]

I have no idea what Bobby Jones might have thought.

I think

Spray painting brown grass is so very very wrong.

Water is too much in play, but apparently that is one thing that professionals respect very much and "think is good" (info I heard from interviews at Honda)

Someone moving forward is more interesting to watch than defending against sliding backwards.

I need not comment any further about trees, pine trees, tree-lined fairways and whether they are "good" or not

I for one don't find on-the-edge fast greens personally fun nor exciting to watch.  They are tedious and can be taken on and mastered to the degree necessary like anything else, but only if your pace of play becomes glacial.  (I also have lots of comments on that record, too)

I also think that today, just possibly we may see a few more accessible pins.

And finally as regards golf - a shorter-carrying, lower or higher (curves more) spinning golf ball is the answer. For all players.  6200-6300 yards is long enough for the amateur and will lead to faster golf.  All older courses can restore to that.


As regards other sports matters

I definitely know that rather than tape/record the Masters today (which may be exciting) I am going to tape and later excitedly watch the F1 race from Sepang which I know was exciting. Alonso, Hamilton and M-M, wow.

[Jeff_Mingay]

This discussion can so easily be simplified: Mow the grass and let 'em play golf. Lowest score wins.

Sounds crazy, doesn't it  

[Chris Cupit]

Bob Jones played major tournaments at 7000 yards in the 1920s with hickory shafts and a marshmallow.

Do you think he'd have any empathy whatsoever at the players' "plight" of playing from 7500 yards with kryptonite and superballs?

I don't think so.  

I don't think he'd have narrowed the playing corridors with groves of trees.  Rather, I think he'd have placed strategic bunkers and modest rough on the non-strategic side of said corridors.  

I could be way off but what course(s) did Jones play that were 7000 yards?  Jones was a long hitter but I thought the courses he played were around 6600.  Again, I could be way off.  (I thought I remember seeing his scorecard and golf ball at Winged Foot from 1929 and I thought the scorecard showed a distance of 6600 yards or so).

Also, a look at  old pictures (Oakmont, Winged Foot, ANGC, TOC) would lead me to think that Jones would be shocked to see such a tree lined place.  Back when Jones played, trees (at many of the championship courses he competed on) either did not exist or were so small and immature as to not be a real factor.

[T.J. Sturges]

This thread is a very interesting read.  What struck me as I was watching the last 2 days is that never in a million years would I have guessed that the men from ANGC would FOLLOW the lead of the USGA in the presentation of their golf course.  Rather I would have bet a bundle (and lost) that ANGC would LEAD the rest of the golf world in the battle against technology.  Ran's point about moving the Masters to RM is a humorous but spot on.  The next logical step is to put ANGC into the US Open rotation.  

TS

[PThomas]

This thread is a very interesting read.  What struck me as I was watching the last 2 days is that never in a million years would I have guessed that the men from ANGC would FOLLOW the lead of the USGA in the presentation of their golf course.  Rather I would have bet a bundle (and lost) that ANGC would LEAD the rest of the golf world in the battle against technology.  Ran's point about moving the Masters to RM is a humorous but spot on.  The next logical step is to put ANGC into the US Open rotation.  

TS

an excellent point Ted

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