Why all the bellyacking about Augusta?

« **on:** April 07, 2007, 10:40:26 AM »

I don't get it. All the complaints about technology, the ball going too far and now that the scoring is high, everyone is complaining.

6 irons into the 18th green used to be the normal. Tiger hit it in the water on 12 from 155 yards. It hasn't rained so what. The greens are fast, you think they are fast, wait til you see Oakmont and that torture chamber of horrors in June.

These are the best players in the world. The course is not tight except on a few holes, there is really no rough.

They have lob wedges into 13 and 15 from little downhill lies. There really has been no wind. These guys are young and the temp have been in the 60's, so what.

I was there Thursday and the conditions were perfect. The players are putting tenative just like us, afraid of 3 putting.

« **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:44:14 AM »

I totally agree. This is what we should be celebrating, not berating. This smacks of elitist malcontents.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:50:20 AM »

The p---- and moaning reminds me of Bob Dylan's Talkin WW III Blues:

"Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time.
But all the people can't be all right all the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that."

« **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:58:46 AM »

i must admit, i loved hearing the huge roars, the sudden moans, the celebrations, the excitement of the potential eagle opportunity...

Fuzzy zoeller said earlier in his interview, he could sit on the veranda after his round and feel the vibration of the roars of the crowd and could almost hear everything around amen corner... now, he said "its like a morge(?spelling) out there!

« **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:01:12 AM »

I 100% agree Cary.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:07:45 AM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on April 07, 2007, 11:01:31 AM

Cary:

What this really shows is further proof of my long-standing theory that all this high-fallutin' high-minded talk about wanting width and angles and strategy and interesting recoveries is nothing more than secret code language for EASY!

I'm watching yesterday's replay yesterday. I just watched Trevor Immelman spin it back with a 3rd shot approach to the "rock hard, unfair" 15th green.

Love the code language reference. "I hit my driver a little wide right, but since the fairway is generous, I will now exercise the OPTION that the architect gave me of having a better ANGLE into the green." Sounds a heck of a lot easier than, "I pushed my tee shot right and it bounced into the goddamned pine straw which left me only the option of punching back into the fairway and then I had to go for broke and go for the flagstick which was tucked in a corner and I didn't have a good angle.

Oh, the humanity...

And, as for the 15th green, Tiger hit it with a 4 wood on Thursday so it must have been pretty bleeding playable then...

« **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:12:42 AM »

This is what happens when you have a leading magazine tell 15 handicaps that they are experts on how and where golf should be played.

« **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:20:08 AM »

This is what happens when you take a great golf course and turn it into a hard one. Anybody can do that!

« **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:24:33 AM »

This is what happens when you call a horse race over before the stretch. I see even Ran is now posturing himself by starting a thread on the Sunday set up. Tiger shoots 30 on the back nine Sunday to win (unless he doesn't need to because he does it today) and all the naysayers crawl back under their divot.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2007, 12:31:04 PM »

Terry,

How does it smack of "elitist malcontents"? What's the elitist bit?

I always thought of the USGA as fitting that bill in their approach to setting up a course for those lowly professionals? An approach some would call "making the best players in the world suffer."

Shivas, amusing comment re "width, strategy, and options are a bunch of hooey." I take it you're not a fan of the Brit Open, esp. Hoylake given it was so easy Tiger didn't even need to hit driver!

Cheers,
Mark

« **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2007, 12:37:57 PM »

What I'm drawing from all this is that we want different majors to differ from each other. Adam Clayman was perhaps the most vociferous defender of the marble staircase that was Shinnecock in '04. Now Adam decries the firm and fast setup at Augusta National.

That's consistent, as long as you state upfront that you want 3 over to win the Open, and 15 under to win the Masters.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2007, 12:48:20 PM »

Rick,

I definitely believe each major should provide a unique test. (If they provide the same test, then the Grand Slam surely becomes easier, no?) Isn't that why people struggle with the PGA's major status? Because it doesn't present much of a different test than the US Open?

I don't care what the score is in the Masters, I just want to see:
1. Risk / reward
2. Options and / or decisions to be made on as many shots as possible, so that the course / setup yields 64s and 78s that are the result of rewards / risks.

This feels more like David Toms the final round of the 2001 PGA ("He was smart to lay up there") than Chip Beck in the 1993 Masters. ("What is he doing laying up?!")

Mark

« **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2007, 12:59:12 PM »

I enjoy watching guys make a lot of birdies. Their shotmaking is astounding. This years master is a ball and very enlighteniing. It is amazing to see who has the shots around the green. You can tell that there a bunch of guys who don't really have a clue.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:43:30 PM »

Quote from: cary lichtenstein on April 07, 2007, 10:40:26 AM

All the complaints about technology, the ball going too far and now that the scoring is high, everyone is complaining.

Sure hasn't seemed like everyone is complaining by reading a few of the threads here in the last two days. Many like the fact that Augusta has played so difficult.

« **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:44:56 PM »

Quote from: cary lichtenstein on April 07, 2007, 10:40:26 AM

6 irons into the 18th green used to be the normal. Tiger hit it in the water on 12 from 155 yards. It hasn't rained so what. The greens are fast, you think they are fast, wait til you see Oakmont and that torture chamber of horrors in June.

6 irons are normal - 14 stimp readings are not. Yeah - I want to wait until June to see absurd playing conditions, not April.

These are the best players in the world. The course is not tight except on a few holes, there is really no rough.

Quite frankly, you weren't paying attention if you don't think the course is significantly tighter than it was. And the rough is longer this year than last year.

They have lob wedges into 13 and 15 from little downhill lies. There really has been no wind. These guys are young and the temp have been in the 60's, so what.

That's the problem - I don't want to see lob wedges into 13 and 15. I want to see 3 and 4 irons.

I was there Thursday and the conditions were perfect. The players are putting tenative just like us, afraid of 3 putting.

That's because the green speeds are out of control.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:50:12 PM »

Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on April 07, 2007, 12:31:04 PM

Terry,

How does it smack of "elitist malcontents"? What's the elitist bit?

I always thought of the USGA as fitting that bill in their approach to setting up a course for those lowly professionals? An approach some would call "making the best players in the world suffer."

I'm referring to the fact that we have our fair share of well-informed cognoscenti on this site and are therefore in an elite and that a lot of people seem to be contrarian to the normal doctrine that I see preached here, namely: 1. We love classic courses; 2. We like firm and fast; 3. We don't like driver/wedge/one-putt birdies as a regular diet and; 4. Driver/wedge/one putt eagles are anathema except on a very episodic basis. So when I hear complaining about the tree planting, I understand it, but I accept the argument that they have to do it to preserve the type of championship they want to run (and preserve the integrity of par, it's THEIR championship after all). But when I hear whining about the setup being too difficult, I think it's entirely misplaced, elitist malcontentedness.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:56:59 PM »

Quote from: Rick Shefchik on April 07, 2007, 12:37:57 PM

Adam Clayman was perhaps the most vociferous defender of the marble staircase that was Shinnecock in '04. Now Adam decries the firm and fast setup at Augusta National.

Rick, That is a mis-characterization of my position. You will not find one word complaining about the firmness at ANGC. My issues with ANGC go way farther back then just this years toonamint.

My position so everyone can jump all over it is that the ill-conceived changes over the recent years are not in keeping with the Jones/Mac intentions. They have limited the heroic attempts and recoveries to few isolated incidents.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:35:20 PM »

Do you still believe in the premise of your bellyacking (or belly aching as it is usually called) post? I too was there Th. I thought it was windy and the course is tight. If you don't think 7, 11, 17 are tight at the distances these holes are being played you don't know much about golf.

Do you still think the downhill lie on 15 is "little" or do you think all those players that dumped it in the water today hit bad shots or caught updrafts of wind or were nervous?

77.3 is as tough a day as we've seen post cut in major golf for a long time. The course is brutal as reconfigured as long as it doesn't rain, and then it is just really hard. The cold had some to do with it today but more the wind and firm conditions as distance control from the fairway was the problem.

You still think Oakmont will play tougher?

« **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:57:07 PM »

Links style conditions with a billion trees

If this is the future of golf, something has gone very very wrong.

« **Reply #19 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:57:21 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on April 07, 2007, 11:30:43 AM

Why is it that any time a course is made harder, anywhere in the world, even as a result of firm and fast conditions (which the guys here are supposed to LOVE), all we get here on GCA is a bunch of guys whining about it??

I think the answer is perfectly clear. Width, stategy and options are all a bunch of hooey. All some guys here want is for golf courses to be so damn easy that they never penalize any player for any mistake and never reward the industrious or skilled for their better play.

Shivas, your position is well-supported by the recent Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club. The amateurs that are shooting in the low 80's at The Masters torched the place. Eldrick et al would have scooted around CGC four times in 32 under!

Mike

« **Reply #20 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:22:50 PM »

if future Masters play as this one has I don't think that is good...it IS just like the US Open, and we already have one of those

today's telecast was par-and-worse golf at its worst and certainly not exciting.....

« **Reply #21 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:40:14 PM »

For the guys who think this kind of golf is boring I have to ask...How can you stand to watch yourselves play?

« **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:48:38 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on April 07, 2007, 10:34:09 PM

There are a lot of guys here who seem to think that difficulty and strategic are mutually exclusive. That's bunk.

I don't know what tournament you guys were watching, but I saw a TON of strategy being exercised out there. A TON.

Totally agree. While good execution is always the key to success, the course clearly rewarded the best thinkers in the field. For example, was it prudent of Tiger to go for the 15th in two, pull it off, but leave himself with a garguantaun, triple-breaking, downhill putt. Isn't he just as good at the 80-120 yd wedge from the correct angle, and thus layup would have been a higher probability route to birdie? Did Tiger take par instead of birdie on the 15th because he didn't strategize correctly for the hole position? This is just one example. There were many situations today where the best golfers in the world made God-awful decisions and paid the price.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:57:59 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on April 07, 2007, 10:40:14 PM

For the guys who think this kind of golf is boring I have to ask...How can you stand to watch yourselves play?

John
People don't pay to watch me play.

« **Reply #24 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:08:11 PM »

All this back and forth, Ok, but has anyone mentioned the possibility that - none of them (the players) are firing on all cylinders... Tiger's driver should be taken from his bag, Vijay is blowing hot, cold, hot, cold, Apples (as I believe he is known as) pulled hard left twice before he paid for it, Rose is also fighting the pulls. I don't see anyone out there playing with the control of Duval or O'Meara in 1998, or Mickleson in '04. So sure, the smart guy will win at this rate. Maybe the course has brought them all to their knees and their confidence is shaken, we all know what that means... but maybe, maybe it's just that no-one is really playing that well...

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