The wedge approach into the 15th at ANGC

« **on:** April 07, 2007, 09:58:43 AM »

I have never seen so many professionals miss a green with a wedge as at the 15th at Augusta National. Not just this year either though the point driven home this week because so many more players are laying-up.

The only other wedge approach with which I am familiar that is so exasperating is the one to the great 8th at Pine Valley Golf Club. Both holes have much in common as they ask a player to hit a wedge from an awkward stance (i.e. downhill) to a putting surface that is the highest part of its surrounds. The flatter trajectory that is yielded from such a stance quickly sorts out the player from the range jockey. Without doubt, this is a great, great design feature, as it proves to be vexing decade after decade regardless of advances in technology.

What other holes make a similar requirement to play a deft wedge from a tricky stance to an elevated green? Does the 13th fairway at Piping Rock yield its fair share of awkward stances? I can't recall for sure and I am hard pressed to come up with other holes in the same class (the valley at the 7th at Crystal Downs is too abrupt to have the playing attributes of the two holes above). The New England topography coupled with all the great architects surely must have yielding a few such holes from the Golden Age?

Do you like this time honored design feature?

Wonder why more architects don't incorporate it into their design?

Cheers,

« **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:09:19 AM »

14 at Yale, which I think is the Knoll hole, from certain parts of the fairway.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:09:36 AM »

Ran,
Have often thought this was one of the most silent design featres at ANGC.....I think most need to see it in person before actually realizing the difficulty......the margin for era is so small as to landing area and the downhill lie effectively negates the feel for distances that have been attained with the wedge on a flat surface.....
Hole # 2 at Peachtree can require a similar shot but non tournamenet conditions would probably allow the ball to hold much better...
I also think another great wedge approach at ANGCthat has been negated was the shot into #7....ine had to calculate spin, lateral movement and a very shallow "miss" depth....I just dont understand the new hole to that green.....

« **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:09:54 AM »

Ran,

Here's some shots a colleague of mine took on Tuesday of Augusta, some very revealing photos addressing the exact topic of your thread-the difficulty of hitting and holding 15 (and plenty of other greens given the conditions)

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s24/pickernh/

BTW-There is a hole at the Country Club called the Himalayas. Not sure it's as hard as 15 to hit the green but it damn hard to get the ball with 20 feet with a sand wedge... with most pin placements. There's couple approaching that at Essex County Club too although it is rare they get the greens in the same condition as ANGC.

On the Mackenzie tip, I would nominate the downwind shot into 14 at NSWGC as no picnic since over and left is gone. Can't count the number of shots where I have landed on the green short of the pin and never seen my ball again.... .

« **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:34:52 PM »

#6 at Pacific Dunes and #14 at Bandon Trails can both pose difficult wedge shots depending on lie, angle, and wind. Each is uphill to a small, narrow, very firm target.

« **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2007, 02:53:36 PM »

#10 at Shinnecock seemed to have the guys pulling their hair out during the US Open.

I do remember that I was surprised at how downhill my lie was to 15 green. Also, the view looking in seems like the green is about 10 feet deep! Obviously the water in front is scary but the way the back horizon line of the green presents itself (kinda like an infinity edge pool), long looks scary as well. Of course long is playable.

Also, I think #11 at Charleston CC is a par three that is maybe a 8 or 9 iron. During tournaments many players layup short and then pitch to this Raynor green.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2007, 05:51:53 PM »

I'm sure Geoff Ogilvy is no longer a fan of this design feature after two consecutive dunks from 100 yds, after laying-up. Tin Cup.

« **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2007, 05:57:16 PM »

What a timely thread. Poor Geoff made a 9 on #15.

« **Reply #8 on:** April 07, 2007, 06:18:29 PM »

What's the over/under on the man from down under going from 3 over to 7 over on a par 5 with less than a hundred yards to the green?

« **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2007, 07:25:40 PM »

wonder if that makes him a 'range jockey' ?

« **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2007, 07:47:31 PM »

It was interesting watching the guys who figured out that w-a-y right was the only way to get close. Those were able to play the slope to spin the ball but not toward the water in front. It was pretty amazing to watch some great players hit in the water - or twice in Ogilvie's case.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:14:38 PM »

a wedge on the 15th is a scary shot if the pin is left... the moment you hit it you give up all hope and just pray that your natural feel was right and that the shot goes the correct length. However if you're on the left of the fairway and far enough down there the downslope is so minimal as to play no real part in making the shot difficult - the trajectory is still so vertical with a wedge or sandwedge that it makes little difference other than mentally. The main problem in this case is that the green looks like it's only a couple of feet deep, and you cant see that you have a little room over the green (not that you'd want to go there based on the next shot you'd have to play!!!). When I played there last year I hit my 1 iron second shot onto the green but it came back into the pond, and I dropped it back at a 3/4 wedge distance... as I say was scary as anything but put it to about 10ft over the flag. If playing a medal round I'd play right a bit and trust my long putting. However once you get up there you realise you have more room than you think given how short a shot it is. I think it's the wind this year that's making it so hard. It is very very windy - just look at the 12... even with a pin front left the other day there was still tons of people missing the green on a hole that is more mentally scary than actually difficult.

Pine Valley's 8th is scary more because of the side to side restrictions of the green (assuming we're talking about the original left green). The raised green aspect is equally scary on this shot than the 15 at Augusta, but from the fairway it looks as though you have more depth to work with if you can hit the ball online.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:56:30 PM »

Unfortunately, this is the only good feature of this hole now, and somewhat forced with the trees/length taking the green out of play for all but Tiger. The wedge shot is certainly a test, and shows the skill of the likes of Taylor, Rose, and Appleby, who all hit great wedge shots here.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2007, 09:34:52 PM »

Imho, the action on 15 today illustrated how wide open fairways can still present a strategic challenge. As pointed out in this thread, the golfers who laid up on the far right side of the fairway had a lot of success with leaving themselves birdie putts. The other players....didn't.

« **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2007, 09:40:07 PM »

Yeah, the fairway was wide around the layup area. Many fairways are easy to hit, but provide only a small area that is good for approaching the green, as is the case with ANGC's 15th. It's too bad this isn't the case off the tee.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2007, 09:30:27 AM »

This is a wonderful point about the 15th. However, I am more curious about how it plays from the member tees more than the Master's tees. Does the difficulty of that wedge cause more players not accustomed to playing to par 5s in two to go for it? This type of feature leaves one with several decisions to make. Having decisions makes golf so fascinating. For me, I would do whatever I could to avoid a 3/4 wedge like that.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 08, 2007, 09:43:21 AM »

I can feel for Ogilvy, as in two rounds at Augusta I've managed to hit three balls in that pond with my wedge. It is a very severe shot any way you slice it.

Back to Ran's question ... while the seventh hole at Crystal Downs might not qualify for his standard, the approach to the par-five eighth hole and the short par-4 fifteenth both qualify. At the latter you have a chance to give yourself something other than a downhill like, but it's not an easy target for the tee shot. Come to think of it, the short par-4 seventeenth also offers a difficult stance for a wedge approach.

« **Reply #17 on:** April 08, 2007, 09:48:31 AM »

There is no comparable hole given the penalty for missing. Ogilvie doesn't make nine at any other hole mentioned or to be mentioned.

The shaved bank is silly, both there and at 12 and 13. The lay-up should not leave a man jailed. Talk about being inconsistent with Jones' philosophy, the tree-obsessed tree-house fails to address the issue of daming the creeks, widening the hazards and shaving the banks (Pete L excepted). Old pictures of the tributary at 13 show the actual creek to be nothing more than an 18" wide trough with plenty of playable lies within the hazard's boundaries.

Mike

« **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2007, 12:32:58 AM »

Quote from: Ran Morrissett on April 07, 2007, 09:58:43 AM

I have never seen so many professionals miss a green with a wedge as at the 15th at Augusta National. Not just this year either though the point driven home this week because so many more players are laying-up.

But, that raises another point.
With the wind in their face on the wedge approach that should have made hitting the green easier.

It might have something to do with the firm & fast conditions and a tight mow on the downslope.

The only other wedge approach with which I am familiar that is so exasperating is the one to the great 8th at Pine Valley Golf Club.

Ran, the wedge approach at # 2 at ANGC is no piece of cake, especially with some of the hole locations, and neither is the approach on # 13 a pushover from the downhill-sidehill lie.
The same can be said for a slightly longer approach on # 9 at ANGC, and, # 11 at ANGC. The use of the severe topography reexamines the players skill at these shots over and over again.

Both holes have much in common as they ask a player to hit a wedge from an awkward stance (i.e. downhill) to a putting surface that is the highest part of its surrounds.

The flatter trajectory that is yielded from such a stance quickly sorts out the player from the range jockey. Without doubt, this is a great, great design feature, as it proves to be vexing decade after decade regardless of advances in technology.

Years ago, Jay Segal told me to stop laying back on # 8 and to hit a driver in an attempt to get to the UPSLOPE which would present an exponentially easier shot. He was right.

What other holes make a similar requirement to play a deft wedge from a tricky stance to an elevated green? Does the 13th fairway at Piping Rock yield its fair share of awkward stances?

Yes, I believe it does, but, as you know, water is a great intimidator, and I think that is what heightens the difficulty at holes # 11, 13 and 15.

The 17th at NGLA can also present this dilema.

I can't recall for sure and I am hard pressed to come up with other holes in the same class (the valley at the 7th at Crystal Downs is too abrupt to have the playing attributes of the two holes above). The New England topography coupled with all the great architects surely must have yielding a few such holes from the Golden Age?

Do you like this time honored design feature ?

Yes, but, it's topographically driven.

Wonder why more architects don't incorporate it into their design ?

I think it relates to the modern trend toward that evil element, "fairness".
The complaints from encountering this feature are shrill.
And, that's why I think it's shied away from, especially if water was involved.

« **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2007, 01:08:50 AM »

My home course has a par 5 where if you lay up you have to decide to get really close to a nasty bunker if you want a level lie (but this leaves a 35-40 yard uphill bunker shot if you get in it) or you can lay further back but have a fairly steep downhill lie.

There's no water so it isn't comparable to the difficulty of ANGC's approaches to 13 and 15, but I did find a strategy that worked for me was that unless the pin was cut behind the front right bunker that the best place to be was the right rough. That increased my margin for error on the shot and made it easier to take the spin off the shot to access back pin positions. Since the green slopes quite severely back to front you don't want to go long so you can't risk flying the ball to the hole on a back pin position, but instead need a little run up. If I could that two hop and stop shot Tiger has it would be perfect for this hole. Alas, I am not that talented!

I wonder if it might make sense for some pin positions at ANGC's 13th when golfers are playing well right anyway for the angle to deliberately play into the second cut to reduce the spin of their approach shot and eliminate the chance of catching the ground a bit before the ball?

« **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2007, 07:50:28 AM »

The approach to the 600 yard par 5 4th at Merion East can result in a downhill lie equal in difficulty to the 15th at Augusta. There is a temptation to hit an extra club to reach the bottom of the hill. Typically the player faces a downhill lie with an approach that must carry a creek (Cobb's) and two bunkers (not among Mike Cirba's favorites) to a green that runs front to back much more so than it appears due to the grain (yes, Mark Fine, due to the grain).

The short 8th also has a downgrade the closer you come to the front bunker. It is often better to have a fuller shot into the green as approach shots, although with a wedge or lofted iron, constantly roll off the back. With a full shot, you can hit with more spin to stay on the green.

You don't want a downhill lie on 11 because that is a very demanding approach no matter how flat the lie. It shouldn't be too hard to find the level lie however given the downslope preceding the LZ as it widens out a bit at the flat area but the downslope in the fairway is rather narrow. This encourages a longer tee shot for position and stance.

One of the most difficult downhill lies to a very tricky green is found on the 18th hole. From the member tees, a good drive almost invariably ends up on a downslope at the base of another hill with a valley beyond and fronting the green. The green can be totally hidden and you must hit a precise lofted approach to hold that very difficult green. The front half slopes back to front and the rear half slopes front to back. Depending upon the pin position, it is a very difficult shot from a downhill lie. From the back and very back tees, the balls often end up on the downslope below the Hogan plaque. A very long iron or fairway wood approach is required from an awkward stance.

« **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2007, 08:35:29 AM »

The 14th at Witch Hollow at Pumpkin Ridge requires a similarly tough approach with a wedge. The right side of the green is open, but slopes away from the player with wetlands not too far behind. The left side slopes towards the player, but is played over a lake. The shot from the preferred layup area is usually off a downhill lie. It is very touchy when the green are firm.

« **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2007, 09:43:45 AM »

I was wondering why nearly every one of the players who missed the putting surface did so short - was long with backspin not an option - if anything, I would think that the thought in one's mind would be that short is disaster so you would have a tendency to hit it long.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2007, 09:50:52 AM »

# 13 has a great percentage of lay ups which end up with severe down hill lies as well. The green is more receptive but the point is the same. It makes the call to go for it a better percentage when you have such a difficult approach option. I have struggled with this as I look at ANGC and its relative shot values. Mike is right. the current #7 seems to have gotten away from what that green calls for. It was watered in a big way Sunday. I saw group after group fire at the pin and hold it in a down wind situation.

« **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2007, 10:30:35 AM »

Wayne,

Did you just say the 4th green at Merion East runs front to back?

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