Impressions of the Old Course in Reverse

« **on:** March 31, 2007, 05:05:16 AM »

No comments yet from the others who played yesterday, so I've no choice but to be the first!

1. It was like playing the Old Course for the first time - feeling utterly at sea. Perhaps even more difficult because none of the holes were familiar, unlike my first time on TOC where I'd seen the course on television and in photos; not to mention reading about the holes.

2. Keeping the strong crosswind in perspective, the Reverse course must be 6-10 shots harder than the Old Course. Rough and course is in all the wrong places, and there are many more blind approaches.

3. Forget the Road hole - the toughest par-4 on the planet has to be the Reverse 2nd (18th tee to 16th green). I've never felt comfortable standing over blind long-iron approaches to greens sloping away from me with out-of-bounds hard against the left side of the green! Playing a run-up shot is almost impossible because of the dramatic contouring of the land short of the green. Perhaps the only way to play it for us mere mortals is to bail out 60-80ft right of the hole, near the 2nd.

4. The 'ground game' was almost non-existent on many holes yesterday, because approaches were rough rather than fairway. This made it very difficult. Getting the rough and gorse right would be a significant task, but might be the only way to make the course truly playable.

5. The 7th (13th tee to 11th green) was probably my favourite hole, but very difficult at the best of times, and close to impossible yesterday. From that angle the green needs to be attacked with a short-iron or wedge, not a 2-iron.

6. The 9th (top 11th tee to 9th green) is a better hole than the conventional 9th, because the fairway bunkers are perfectly placed for the tee shot. Strategy actually comes into play here.

7. I'll give James Bennett credit for the suggestion that the 10th be played from a tee on the lhs of the 9th green, so that 10 becomes a straight hole rather than crossing over with 9. Not only dangerous with the crossover, but James' 10th would be much more interesting with a "line of charm" created by the flag.

8. Playing in Reverse is a great way to better understand the Old Course; features which I'd barely noticed during my time here were very obvious playing the other way.

More later.

« **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2007, 05:22:51 AM »

My one para about the Rverse Old Course (or the 'left' course as it is also known).

It is like being married to a girl with a twin sister. Your wife is right handed and the twin is left handed. Your wife is taken ill and so you take your twin sister to the formal dinner dance instead. It all looks the same, but it is a compeltely different experience. The twin will spank you for the very same thing that your wife might reward you for!

Oh, and we had a two-ball behind us who had come up to play the Old Course from the mid-lands. They had no idea that is was the Reverse day.

Thank heavens for the strokesaver they issued for the day. Otherwise it was like playing Helen Keller for the day. Admittedly, #12 (to 6 green) was the blind, 'least best' hole for the day.

One last brief comment - the par 5's were wonderful in reverse. George Thomas would have loved them! Especially the one to #13 green (reverse 5).

James B

« **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2007, 11:56:31 AM »

James,

I wholeheartedly agree regarding the par 5's. Especially the 5th, the second shot there provides about 4 different options:

left down the original 14th
short of the cross bunkers on the bottom fairway
over the cross bunkers but right of the flag
go for the pin (admittedly this would have to be in a different wind than yesterday)

« **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2007, 06:46:50 PM »

I suppose as one of the resident Scots on the Board, I should at least add a thought or two of mine.

Despite playing the reverse auld lady about as well as a man who couldnae have hit a coo's erse wi' a banjo.

Pause for explanation of above term. Imagine, if you will, a be-kilted Scotsman standing in fairly close proximity to the hindquarters of a large animal of bovine extraction. Said Scot has in his possession a four-stringed percussive skinned plucked instrument much favoured in the southern states of the US, oft' seen at 'de camptown races', I believe. He is attempting to strike said bovinial beast upon its anal flanks with said instrument and yet, despite his aforementioned ridiculously close proximity, is totally unable to perform said task.

That is how BAD I was yesterday!

Back to our scheduled programming: by about the third hole, I was so utterly and totally, confussed(sic), flummoxed, bamboozled and generally disorientated, that I had NAE IDEA of even how to play golf far less how to do it in reverse.

I was amazed by the effect of the reverse routing on how I visualised the shots before me. Maybe it might have been easier had I never played her before but the reverse was indeed as James B said: like taking your wife's twin sister to the dance. Familiar, yet strangely other-worldly.

In summary, I'm glad I did it, but, I'm REALLY not sure I want to do it again. My sanity is too fragile...

FBD.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:02:59 PM »

Chris K (and others)
thanks for that. You paint a good picture of what it was like. When Sean W was posting the hole-by-hole pictures the last few weeks, I wrote him to say that each hole looked scarier to me than the last...and that on a piece of land with no water and about 5 feet of elevation change.

Question for all who played: do you think repeated plays would make a difference in terms of how you approached the course and how you scored?

Btw, your impressions sound almost like those of golfers who play TOC in regualr fashion, but for the first time, i.e. shell-shocked!

Peter

« **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2007, 08:39:43 PM »

Peter,

I'm sure repeated plays would make a difference but Chris is right it is a tougher course. I would also say it is more affected by the wind than the normal routing (and we played it in a 20mph breeze). This may be due to the maintenance practices paying little regard to the old course, but there are many greens that have to be airmailed due to either gorse or dunes making the approach blind. There are also a few holes where a little rough removal would help establish the ground game as an option.

I would also say how they currently have the loop structured is all wrong and the whole course in general is less safe than the original. I'm thinking there's a fair chance this is a large part of the reason it became the accepted form.

I'm sorry I don't have any material with me to be specific.

Also sorry I didn't complete the series I've been fighting a losing battle against a virus on my home computer.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:29:03 AM »

Could the reverse, set up properly, make a good Open Championship course? How do you think the pro's would do there?

« **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:52:47 AM »

Thre will be very few on GCA who can comment on this, and for those, we have only played it once,.... BUT

The lines of play in both directions on the non-loop holes all (?often) wanted to play to the same area of the fairway. Incoming balls from the other hole were coming at you so often (partly the strong NE cross-breeze, admittedly). There were large parts of fairway that just didn't get used by the Reverse. So, a course on a small acreage actually used less land in play than the right hand course.

This led me to wonder about the changes to the Old Course some 150 years ago. The widening of the fairways, and the much-heralded creation of strategy. My hypothesis (based on a single play) is that the decision to reverse the direction of play was as important if not the primary issue in creating the strategic Old Course. Remember, the Old Course gives options and rewards playing to the right side (generally) but allows play from the middle. The Reverse seemed more penal in design (partly because of the gorse and long grass admittedly) but also seemed to encourage/direct play to a common area.

I look forward to seeing Tom Doak's comments on the Reverse. Is it the penal side of the Old Course? The dark side of the twin sisters?

By the way, Martin was apologetic about his apopletic behaviour on about the 3rd hole onwards. He was having short-circuits in his brain - he was not alone. You need to understand that with the reverse, you are referring to the special strokesaver for every shot, and the pin position sheet as well. The brain is in sensory overload, plus a 25 knot wind blowing off the coast as a cross-wind. The line of play into the green is so different because of the different hazards encountered that the line from the tee cannot be presumed. The game was set up by the pin position on the green, but we literally had no idea how to deal with it on this virginal play, despite whatever preparation we had undertaken.

That said, there were a few holes which had the greens set up beautifully for Reverse - I think it was Reverse 3 (15 green) and Reverse 6 (12 green) in particular that played 'easier'. I actually got onto the middle shelf of #12 playing Reverse 6!

James B

« **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:55:33 AM »

For some of the reasons stated by James it would also likely mean a 7 hour round for the Pros. YAWN

Also I'm not sure what the record is for the number of 40+ yard putts (from on the putting surface) in one round but I think I can start my introduction letter to the Guinness World Book of Records. Can anyone beat 4

« **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2007, 09:40:07 AM »

Chris nailed it......I felt totally clueless after the 2nd hole, but regained some composure and relative directional feel by the 8th.....the loop is flat out dangerous....I was walking up to 7 to mark my ball and I was directly in the line of the 8th tee....they were teeing off and I didn't notice...that happens on a few holes in the middle of the round (staring down the barrel of the opposing tee shot)

I really liked the angle on the reverse 9th....seeing the fw bunkers at that angle was neat

A good thing about our late tee time, I could play the back 9 down the original fairways....I would have a longer shot to our flag, but just tried to get it on any part of the double green

12 made no sense with the gorse in front....didn't even know where the group in front was, had to wait until you saw them on 13 tee

really did like the finish....#1 green opposite brings the burn into play over the green (as James found out

)

liked the angle of reverse #18, teeing off left of old #1 green.....felt very fortunate to make par from off the right side of the green

all and all a great experience, but wouldn't want to play it everyday....a caddie probably is a must, BillM said his caddie gave him lines off the tee that he wouldn't have even thought of

« **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2007, 10:02:53 AM »

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like a very interesting experience.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2007, 09:36:01 AM »

It was most interesting to play. I disagree that it is much tougher on the reverse, if you can figure out where you are going ... I played my best round in a while, and shot 81 off my 10 handicap. So, apparently I am good at improvisation.

I thought the only holes that weren't so good were the 12th (backwards to 6 green ... I played down 12 fairway but caught one of the bunkers), the 14th (we all laid up our second shots as there didn't seem any advantage in going across to the 14th approach with the second shot), and the 17th (because I hit into the burn behind to blow my chance of breaking 80).

I thought the first was superb, the second was very cool, the fifth a great par 5; I really enjoyed the ninth and tenth as they were set up; and I thought the 16th (backwards down the fourth fairway to the back of the third green) was the best hole on the course.

I'll have to think about a score on the Doak scale, but it certainly isn't a ten that way round. Still, it makes me that much more determined to build a reversible course someday.

« **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2007, 02:38:32 PM »

Quote from: Martin Glynn Bonnar, 46, 36" on March 31, 2007, 06:46:50 PM

I suppose as one of the resident Scots on the Board, I should at least add a thought or two of mine.

Despite playing the reverse auld lady about as well as a man who couldnae have hit a coo's erse wi' a banjo.

Martin,

I think the Rhodesian version had a crisper alliteration.

Bob

« **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2007, 06:04:03 PM »

I think a key factor in the ROC seeming more difficult was the wind. Playing on Friday in a 2-club quartering wind made it hard - especially due to the aerial attacks necessary.

However, Saturday morning with no wind, the course became much simpler. Pars were a lot easier to come by. Familiarity definitely helped as well.

The biggest disappointment to me was the repetitiveness of the finishing holes on the reverse. The regular finish is one of the greatest in golf, while the reverse is rather mundane.

Random comments: Reverse hole 7 was great, but probably not worth trading regular 7 or 11 for. 9 and 10 were better in reverse - with or without the Bennett variation. And a less visible road hole bunker doesn't make up for the loss of the burn directly in front of the first.

« **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2007, 06:48:53 PM »

It seems that the webcam on top of the Old Course Hotel is no longer in service.

I got this photo from TOC webcam of 1st green (17 in reverse) at the time the GCAers might have been finishing.

Anyone look familiar?

« **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2007, 06:52:58 AM »

I thought the front 9 of the Reverse was outstanding: 1, 2, 5, 7 and 9 particularly, but the intervening holes were also very good (in fact you could argue that the front 9 of the reverse is of the same standard (or better!?!) as either 9 on the normal routing).

After playing 10, I started to wonder if the reverse would turn out to be really special. But as others have noted, the middle of the back nine (say 12 through 15) was pretty average and while the finishing three holes picked up the standard a little, they are no match for 16, 17 and 18 on the normal routing.

As for difficulty, I shot 78 in reverse versus 79 on the normal routing, and conditions were much tougher on the reverse day. My 79 was inflated by a 7, 5 finish, thanks to the road hole bunker and the valley of sin. But that might be a key point: the finish to the normal routing is tougher (especially comparing the respective 16th and 17th holes) and there is more room for big numbers. Anyway, I would say that the difficulty is much the same on either routing, and is driven predominantly by weather and pin positions on any two days

But having a quality reversible course is so cool. Honestly, I am surprised that they do not play it more often during the year

« **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2007, 06:58:36 AM »

I think the first on the reverse is one of the best holes in golf.

Brian

« **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2007, 07:04:12 AM »

With regard to the loop - we didn't notice the dangers of incoming golf shots but that may have been because we had caddies.

I know the caddies found it disconcerting playing the course in reverse - walking the wrong way down fairways etc.

My caddy was very relieved to have the strokesaver in his hand. It was actually great fun because we would stand on each tee and consult the map together deciding where I should (in theory drive).

I really enjoyed the conversations on the tee (the ladies' tees were centimetres from the men's tees) which highlighted how differently the course had to be approached given the differences in Matthew and my games. There were times when Matthew's caddy would tell him to aim in one direction and my caddy would say "ignore that, we are going this way". At times we were taking almost opposite lines and approaching the green from different angles.

My caddy (for those planning a trip) was great fun - Craig - and he had no problem hauling around a very pink bag!

« **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2007, 09:18:43 AM »

""CHAIRMAN of the JACKET COMMITTEE""

Im interested to know why you think its one of the best in golf??

« **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2007, 02:32:05 AM »

Quote from: Brian Phillips on April 03, 2007, 06:58:36 AM

I think the first on the reverse is one of the best holes in golf.

Brian

Well, it must be the green and surroundings then, because most people think the hole playing to that green in the normal direction is also one of the best holes in golf!

Funny how if an architect built a carbon copy of that green and bunker (even leaving out the road) they'd probably get crucified by the average golfer who would call it unfair...

« **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2007, 02:40:10 AM »

Doug

the green was originally a double green (see Adrian Stiff's response to my Road Hole thread). The waist of the green is Bridget Bardot in size, pinched by the road hole bunker and the road. These hazards and the firm greens render any aerial attack as incompetent, which enables the safety required for sharing such a green.

The road is a wonderful diagonal hazard, waiting to catch a slightly thinly struck shot on the left hand first hole (which is always a chance from tight fairways) or a shot played away from the road hole bunker.

As a double green, the #17 back pin behind the road hole bunker (the one which makes a dogleg green from the front left, and presumably started Tommy Nakajima's excellent adventure in 1977?) is not available.

James B

« **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:01:47 AM »

Any chance someone might post the ROC Strokesaver?

I think a lot of us would love to see it.

Bob

« **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2007, 11:49:18 AM »

Quote from: BCrosby on April 04, 2007, 09:01:47 AM

Any chance someone might post the ROC Strokesaver?

I think a lot of us would love to see it.

I believe John Krystynak is planning to take on that project, as well as some other material on the ROC, which he played twice last week.

I can confirm that it's a very different experience from the standard Old Course, many more aerial requirements and a lot more dangerous situations. It does not have the drama of playing #11 or #17 and Hell doesn't come into play, so it's not the course the regular Old is, but it is very much an interesting round.

I've come to the realization that each hour spent in St Andrews adds two hours to one's life.

« **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2007, 11:52:59 AM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on April 04, 2007, 11:49:18 AM

I've come to the realization that each hour spent in St Andrews adds two hours to one's life.

You've just made my day Bill!!

I have the ROC strokesaver on my desk - I'm reluctant to post it due to copyright issues - the Links Trust could always suspend my ticket in retribution!

« **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2007, 03:51:40 PM »

One of my suprises playing the reverse route is that the bunkering didn't become more visible. Probably some more naivete on my part. The only thing I can take away from this is Mackenzie didn't need the Boer War to find camouflaged hazards. All he had to do was look north.

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