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ed_getka

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Best greens in Scotland?
« on: March 30, 2007, 04:09:55 PM »
In reading the latest issue of T&L Golf, Tom Doak is quoted as saying Gullane #3 greens are "the best designed in all of Scotland". Any opinions on this, as I have never heard of the greens of Gullane #3 being that special?

Also, the writer goes on to say that #16 green at North Berwick is the original Biarritz which I am pretty sure isn't right. Anyone know for sure?

Anyone think Dunbar East is superior to North Berwick West? If so, why? I haven't seen Dunbar, but I love NB.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 04:10:53 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Phil McDade

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2007, 05:28:34 PM »
Ed:

Machrihanish has some pretty good greens, and I know Doak has seen them. Some pretty severe undulations and great variety.


Tyler Kearns

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2007, 05:38:40 PM »
Also, the writer goes on to say that #16 green at North Berwick is the original Biarritz which I am pretty sure isn't right. Anyone know for sure?

Ed,

If you look at the green contours of the 16th at North Berwick and the 'Biarritz' hole greens designed by Macdonald & Raynor, you'de notice a strong similarity. The term 'Biarritz' is derived from a course and/or hole in France, which called for a long carry over a deep chasm. This is likely a case of Macdonald creating a composite hole out of features from different golf holes.

TK

ed_getka

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2007, 06:09:37 PM »
Phil,
  I look forward to seeing Machrihanish in the future. How would you compare those greens to Dornoch?

Tyler,
   NB #16 has the characteristic swale, but it was always my understanding that the hole in France was the original. Also, the NB green doesn't set up on the same axis as the other Biarritz's I've seen over the years, not to mention that NB is a par 4 as I remember.

Nobody has played Gullane #3?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike Erdmann

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2007, 06:44:55 PM »
Also, the writer goes on to say that #16 green at North Berwick is the original Biarritz which I am pretty sure isn't right. Anyone know for sure?

Ed, this would make sense in that the 16th green at North Berwick predates Biarritz Golf Club, designed by Willy Dunn in 1888.  At least, I'm assuming Berwick's 16th green in its current configuration predates 1888.  If Willy Dunn used NB's 16th green as the model for the green at Biarritz Golf Club, then I guess you could call it the 'original' Biarritz.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 06:45:54 PM by Mike_Erdmann »

Phil McDade

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2007, 12:53:38 AM »
Phil,
  I look forward to seeing Machrihanish in the future. How would you compare those greens to Dornoch?

Tyler,
   NB #16 has the characteristic swale, but it was always my understanding that the hole in France was the original. Also, the NB green doesn't set up on the same axis as the other Biarritz's I've seen over the years, not to mention that NB is a par 4 as I remember.

Nobody has played Gullane #3?

Ed:

Dornoch's the base of my next trip (which may be in my dreams -- three kids to get to college and all that...). Of the courses I've played in Scotland (15 or so), Machrihanish had the best greens, by a good margin. Fraserburgh, an underrated links on the northeastern shore north of Aberdeen, also had some very good greens, but not as many, nor as dramatic, as those at Machrihanish.

Machrihanish is worth the trip; an awfully pure links experience, although I'm distressed at the news they may be building another 18 there, which will make it more of a destination, and thus maybe lose some of its Shangri-La-ish qualities. Several quirky, interesting courses near (relative term...) Machrihanish as well.


Mark_F

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2007, 02:38:23 AM »
Ed,

For what it is worth, I have played all three Gullane courses, but none of them were particularly memorable. I can't recall a single hole from either two or three.  Maybe Tom was misquoted? ;)

I'm with Phil, Macrihanish has a fantastic set of greens that are just pure fun. They are all different, whereas I would venture to say there is a smidgeon of sameness about a few of Dornoch's.

Nairn has a pretty good set of greens, too.  Not the contours of Mac, but very quick, firm and true.

Tain has a green that is worth a trip in itself to study - the 15th.

Rich Goodale

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2007, 03:57:31 AM »
Tom's just being provocative.  I am a big fan of Gullane #3, and it does have excellent green complexes (as a 5000 yard course MUST have).  But best.  No.

The Old Course greens are the most interesting, but only because they were largely NOT designed (or if designed, designed for the Reverse routing...).  However, nobody would build anything like them today, and rightly so.


The internal Machrihanish greens are wild and fun, but "great" is not the word for them.  They aren't part and parcel of holes designs whcih make the golfer think strategically from tee to final putt.

The greens at Turnberry, Muirfield and Carnoustie are largely subtle (bland?) rather than interesting.  Getting there (i.e. driving) is what counts at those courses.

The best?  Dornoch.  Interesting, fun, and as good as it gets linkage of tee to hole strategic thinking.

Kevin Pallier

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2007, 06:44:48 AM »
Ed

Nairn has some of the truest I've seen. Dornoch's are also mightily impressive.


ed_getka

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2007, 10:03:28 AM »
Thanks guys. Machrihanish is most definitely on my list, plus a trip over to Machrie which sounds like my kind of quirk. And I still need to see Prestwick, since they had a tournament taking place on my first trip over.

Phil,
   Seeing Dornoch is MUCH more important than sending your kids to college. :)

Mark,
    What makes #15 at Tain so interesting?

Rich,
    Spoken like a true believer (about Dornoch). Why wouldn't TOC's greens be built today?

"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Phil McDade

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2007, 10:44:33 AM »
Tom's just being provocative.  I am a big fan of Gullane #3, and it does have excellent green complexes (as a 5000 yard course MUST have).  But best.  No.

The Old Course greens are the most interesting, but only because they were largely NOT designed (or if designed, designed for the Reverse routing...).  However, nobody would build anything like them today, and rightly so.


The internal Machrihanish greens are wild and fun, but "great" is not the word for them.  They aren't part and parcel of holes designs whcih make the golfer think strategically from tee to final putt.

The greens at Turnberry, Muirfield and Carnoustie are largely subtle (bland?) rather than interesting.  Getting there (i.e. driving) is what counts at those courses.

The best?  Dornoch.  Interesting, fun, and as good as it gets linkage of tee to hole strategic thinking.

Rich:

I can't comment on Dornoch's greens, and thus can't compare their strategic merit relative to Machrihanish. But I'd quibble a fair amount with the notion that its greens don't play into strategic decisions.

On 3 (Islay), the very large green is angled from front right to back left, and you clearly want to be on the right side of the fairway for a better approach. But that means a decision about whether or not to carry the very large ridge that bisects the fairway at an angle that also runs right short to long left. The approach from the left also requires a carry over two visually intimidating pot bunkers. The flow and design of the hole say, you're better off with an approach from the right, but there is way more room and less danger off the tee to the left. That's a pretty good design, in part created by the angle of the green.

On 4 (Jura), the par 3 is not a great short hole, but a good one, because the green surrounds are so penal -- steep falloffs in every direction, and three pot bunkers -- two staring you in the face on the tee -- that need to be avoided. The green's contours are more subtle than dramatic, but the green site is a good one for what is a target hole.

On 5 (Punch Bowl) -- good golly, this is a great hole, with a great green; a more interesting par 4 than anything I saw at TOC (!!). That false front is just enormous, with huge consequences for underclubbing. And if you've only won half the battle once you're on the green -- severe contours and falloffs back and right of the green that suggest a careful approach from what is one of the most topsy-turvy fairways around, and thus a likely uneven lie.

On 7 (Brauch More), the doglegging right fairway is contrasted by a green angled away from the line of play. Again, the preferred angle in is from the right, and that's where most of the trouble lies. Too far left on the tee shot requires an approach over a sand dune, and also makes the green more shallow. An approach from the right opens up the green, and allows for more error, but you risk the rough, fairway trap, and mounds and gullies right. A great design of a hole -- set up by an interestingly placed green.

On 8 (Gigha), it's all hit or miss for that green, so you better be in the fairway on this short par 4. Severe uphill approach to the green, and falloffs all around the sides and back, and a nasty little bunker front right.

On 9 (Ranachan), it's pretty similar -- falloffs back and right on the greensite, a series of bunkers left, and another right front pot bunker that's trouble. And it's one of the smallest greens on the course.

On 10 (Cnocmoy), the smallish green, and two pot bunkers that narrow the entryway, force a decision on both the approach and the tee shot -- try to squeeze the tee shot through the mounds at @ the 250-yard mark, or layup short of them, then another layup. Played as a three-shotter, and the green is not troublesome. But it's a short par 5, and one is tempted to take it on in two.

On 11 (Strabane), golfers are confronted with a reverse Redan-esque hole -- a nicely angled green, very deep, with bunkers left and right. At 192 yards from the regular tees, it's a strong hole.

12 (Long hole) is another terrific green site -- severe drop-off before the green, which leads to two bunkers, big sand dunes left and right, falloffs and depressions all around, big contours internally. Another shortish par 5 that gets really interesting from about 100 yards in, mainly because of everything that's happening both in and around the green.

13 (Kilkivan) has a severe false front, bunkers fronting left and right, and falloffs left and back. Another "better be in the fairway" tee shot.

15 and 16, the two back nine par 3s, are also terrific holes, with greens sitting perched up from their surroundings, and bunkers -- several on the short 15, one big one on the long 16th -- coming into play.

Even 17 and 18, probably the two weakest holes on the course, have stuff going on around the greensites that make for some thought-provoking decisions on the tee (18, for sure) or on the approach (17).

Still hoping to get to Dornoch, though, to compare!

Ed -- I'd agree about Dornoch, but I have to contend with a household veto!






ed_getka

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2007, 12:06:35 PM »
Phil,
   Thanks for the descriptions of the demands of the holes at Machrihanish. #5 must be pretty darned impressive if it is better than #2 or #12 green at TOC, which are two of my favorites. Granted there are flat uninteresting areas on some greens on TOC, but every green except #9 has some interesting areas, not to mention the ground leading into the greens.
   How is the ground leading into the holes at Machrihanish? I would assume from the pix I have seen over the years that it is pretty interesting also. How much do you have to figure that into your approach shots at Machrihanish?
   If you can't override the veto of your college-bound kids, not to worry, Dornoch is worth the wait. :)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 12:08:41 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Phil McDade

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2007, 12:31:06 PM »
Ed:

I think the entirety of #5 at Machrihanish -- not just the green -- is what makes it a great hole. It really, in my mind, is a great, great hole -- I'd argue the best at the course, which is saying a lot. The fairway there really heaves to and fro, and it's a blast to play. Any comparison between TOC and Machrihanish is probably unfair; the settings are entirely different, and the courses are different kinds of links -- TOC over a flattish piece of land with odd bounces, contours, and negotiating all those bunkers. Machrihanish is set amongst the dunes, with conventionally sized greens, in the middle of nowhere. But, I think the 5th holds up as a great, great links hole.

The front nine at Machrihanish is really the attraction, because it gets the best of the layout in and around the dunes. The back nine is over somewhat flatter terrain, though still very good links turf. It's a course that requires some thoughfulness on approach shots, because some require an aerial approach, while others you can run up. I'd encourage at least a couple of plays, and if you can, to play with a club member or two. I did, and found it extraordinarily helpful and insightful to the course's ins and outs.

ed_getka

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2007, 03:28:48 PM »
Phil,
   It sounds like you had a fantastic experience at Machrihanish. Was that just from one trip? I have always wanted to see that course so it is just a matter of time. A few years ago I was talking with Neil Regan who is a member there and just the enthusiasm in his voice when talking about the course just cemented my desire to get there. And now to read your glowing account of the joys of the course is most enjoyable. It is posts like yours that make GCA such a great resource.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David_Tepper

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2007, 07:57:23 PM »
Phil McDade -

Unless something significant has happened lately, I don't think it is a question of if the new course (designed by David Kidd and not affiliated with the golf club) gets built at Machrihanish, just a question of when. As far as I know (which isn't very) that project is going to happen. If anyone sees this and knows where things now stand, please give us an update!

DT

Mark_F

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2007, 11:14:33 PM »
Ed,

I can't entirely remember, but do remember thinking it was worth a trip just to see the green. I should have paid more attention, but as it was my 11th game in 14 days, and not being a fit Californian  :), I was buggered.

It has a sort of little plateau, that contains another little crown that is slightly hollowed out in the centre.  Amazing, really.

You will just have to trust my judgement. :)


Chris Kane

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2007, 05:51:14 AM »
Tain has a green that is worth a trip in itself to study - the 15th.

Is that the same Tain you told me to skip because it had nothing worth seeing Mark?

Rich Goodale

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2007, 05:16:42 PM »
ed

Most St. Andrews greens wouldn't be built today because they haven't yet!  Wonder why Doak, D&C etc. have used some of their minutiae, but avoided the larger templates..... ???  One reason?--20% really interesting stuff and 80% pure blah.  Great greeens are 100% interesting.

Phil

Thanks for the great stuff on Machihanish, which enhances my (limited) understanding of the place.  I personally tend to find the permutations in the relationships between crumpled fairways and heaving greens a bit too complex for my pea brain to comprehned.  Maybe next time I get there......

As for Dornoch, let me know when and if you want to see an alternative theory of greatness.

Rich

Phil McDade

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2007, 05:36:23 PM »
Rich:

I practically have your "My Home Course" profile of Dornoch memorized for my (hoped to get there someday) trip. Machrihanish is pretty rollicking in parts, which I think is part of its great appeal. But everything I've seen and heard about Dornoch suggests it's truly a great course.

I know folks who do venture to Dornoch try to include Brora, and Tain gets some good marks as well. I'm curious -- have you ever ventured north to places like Wick, Thurso and Reay? I've heard decent, not great, things about all three, but not much, really. I heard Wick may have gotten some work done, possibly by Ronan Rafferty?


Mark_F

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2007, 06:29:49 PM »
Is that the same Tain you told me to skip because it had nothing worth seeing Mark?

I said that Chris?  

I'm sure I would have added that the 15th green almost makes it worth a visit in itself, since I have always thought that.

But then you are much younger and fitter than I, so you have only pecuniary reasons for skipping anything.

Have you played Tain, and what did you think?


Chris Kane

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2007, 08:01:55 PM »
Mark, we were about 30m short of the 6th green at Kingston Heath when I mentioned that I was thinking of playing Tain on the way back from Dornoch.  You replied "I'd skip Tain", that it wasn't good enough to warrant a game.

I explained to you that I'd prefer to see it for myself and make that judgment, given my relative lack of time constraints.  Pecuniary reasons for skipping it?  The day I planned to play was £16 per round!

In the end other factors prevented me from playing Tain, but I hope to see it (and Royal Dornoch again) before my time in Scotland is over.  

Doug Wright

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2007, 08:18:01 PM »
I'm on record as saying the greens in Scotland generally are not that interesting, but I'd say that Royal Dornoch's are pretty good.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mark_F

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2007, 09:41:54 PM »
Chris,

Tain does have a few nice holes.  The par five 4th has an attractively narrow and lumpy fairway leading into a nice green, and the Alps hole is also worth a look.  The first three holes have some minor merit too, I suppose, but 15th green aside, I doubt there is anything especially distinctive there, and the flat stuff is pretty mundane. I'd much prefer another round at Brora, or even Nairn, if I had to make the choice.

But at sixteen quid you can hardly go wrong, especially without time constraints.

I am surprised that we would have been close enough for conversation on the 6th at KH, since I would undoubtedly have been on the first fairway, and you would have been on the 7th tee. :)

Rich Goodale

Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2007, 06:44:07 AM »
Phil

I've been up to Scotland's version of the Bermuda Triangle (Wick/Thurso/Reay) but only to play cricket, not golf.  There were a few damned good fast bowlers amongst the limey physicists who were building and operating the fast breeder reactors up there in those days......

I've heard they are OK, but (also based on what I've heard, but not played) I'd go to Durness and play the 9-holer there.  The drive up there stunning, where as the drive to Wick is interesting only if you are into peat bogs.  You also get to visit the John Lennon memorial garden (he spent his holidays near Cape Wrath).

Enjoy

Rich

Phil McDade

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Re:Best greens in Scotland?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2007, 11:27:55 AM »
Rich:

Didn't the Queen Mum holiday in Wick? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

I have heard similar reports of Durness -- seems a long drive for nine holes, but as one's who done something similar, I can see the appeal!

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