[Tom Huckaby]

I'm guessing quite a few participants here have played both.

Both are MacKenzie gems, both have gone through changes over the years only to be restored recently.

Both are relatively short, but play longer than their card yardage due to uphill shots or other factors.

Both have incredible greens, some with severe contour - although Meadow's greens are generally larger.

Both to me are great golf courses by any possible connotation of that term.

So now the question:  which do you prefer, and why?  Secondarily, why does Pasa get some much ink, buzz, high ratings while Meadow Club, while discussed a lot in here, remains relatively unsung out in the real world?

Is it location, location, location?  Meadow Club is pretty remote and tough to find.  Is it that Pasa is semi-private, and thus more people see it?  Or is Pasa that much of a superior course?

My feelings are that Pasa is one of the area's great gems, if not the world's.  But man Meadow Club as so artfully restored by Mike DeVries can't be that far behind.  Thus I am puzzled as to why it doesn't get more acclaim.

Thoughts?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Pasatiempo is on a much more dynamic piece of land, and it's available for public consumption.  Add in the Marion Hollins factor, and the fact that MacKenzie died there, and you can account for a significant disparity in notoriety.

Truthfully, I think they are both somewhat overrated, but I also think Pasatiempo has several Wow! holes, and The Meadow Club not many.  (And it never did, so that's got nothing to do with Mike's work.)

[David Stamm]

Hucks, I haven't played Meadow Club so I can't speak about it, however, I do think Pasa may get more ink for the reason you gave as to the fact that it is semi private. IMHO, I think it may be more due to the fact that Pasa has retained more of it's originality than MC. Also, Pasa has been cited by some and Doak in particluar as Mack's most personal design. The fact that he lived there (6th hole) and his ashes spread on the course contributes to the lore of the place. Being a such a big Mackenzie fan, comparing his courses is like asking a woman what her favorite cut is for a diamond. All of them!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

Pasatiempo is on a much more dynamic piece of land, and it's available for public consumption.  Add in the Marion Hollins factor, and the fact that MacKenzie died there, and you can account for a significant disparity in notoriety.

Truthfully, I think they are both somewhat overrated, but I also think Pasatiempo has several Wow! holes, and The Meadow Club not many.  (And it never did, so that's got nothing to do with Mike's work.)

TD:  thanks.  That makes sense.  Pasa does have a lot going for it that Meadow doesn't.  It's just that when one does stop to think about the two golf courses, each as a whole, well... I don't find Pasa to be overall THAT much superior.

I just also wonder if other people do... if perhaps I am overselling Meadow... something I am often guilty of re great courses, especially right after playing them.  

[Tom Huckaby]

David - that too makes great sense - thanks.

I just wonder though if Pasa really did retain more of it's original MacKenzie design intentions than did Meadow... I guess so, but man neither seemed very close to me today to what the old pictures show.  Both have enormous trees now that MacKenzie never intended... and now both have been restored as well as they possibly could be... So I'm thinking that's a wash.

But as for Pasa getting more notoriety, that makes great sense.  If the ghost of MacKenzie haunts a course, it will be the one in Santa Cruz.

I just do remain curious if Pasa really is that much the superior golf course.  You need to get up and play Meadow my friend so you can give me a reality check!  
TH

[Tom_Doak]

It might also have something to do with that Pasatiempo is right off the highway en route to Pebble Beach, whereas The Meadow Club is the end of the road up a mountain on the other side of the Golden Gate.

[Tom Huckaby]

It might also have something to do with that Pasatiempo is right off the highway en route to Pebble Beach, whereas The Meadow Club is the end of the road up a mountain on the other side of the Golden Gate.

Yep.  That's why I said "location location location." One does have to trek a bit to find Meadow Club.  

[Kevin_Reilly]

I think many haven't seen the "new" Meadow Club.  The MC of the 80s-90s was a rather ordinary looking course, with little to suggest its MacKenzie heritage.  Tree growth and course conditioning practices had taken a toll.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kevin - that's a good call also.  The old Meadow was pretty over-treed and would have taken a very discerning eye to have it measure up to Pasa, which as TD said does have so many more wow holes.  I hadn't though of it that way at all.  Think this will change as more peopld do see the "new" Meadow?

Bill - oh yes, I have heard that opinion.  But it is very much a minority one.  

TH

[David Stamm]

  You need to get up and play Meadow my friend so you can give me a reality check!  
TH

If the oppurtunity presents itself, I'd love to take notes and make a comparison.  


I may be wrong about Pasa having more of it's origianl design than MC, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that alot of MC's Mack influence had been altered. I know that happened at Pasa as well, but I don't think it was to the degree that it happened at MC.

As for the ghost, I think that analogy is spot on. Because I am such a Mack fan, when I go to Pasa, there is a very special aura I feel there.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Bill, I've heard that often about Spyglass (especially from better players) but not much (if at all) about Pasatiempo, unless the comparison is done on a course quality vs dollars spent basis.

[Tom Huckaby]

David - you very well could be correct re the design history.  But we have plenty of historians around here who could likely say with some certainty.   Hopefully they will chime in.

Kevin - methinks its just some yahoos (lower case, not the honor it is with the upper case Y) around this forum who call Pasa better than Pebble.  You know how that goes.  

[ed_getka]

Tom H,
   I know of at least one GCA'er who thinks Meadow is better than Pasatiempo. I don't agree him, but I do agree with you that they aren't THAT far apart. I prefer Pasa, but Meadow is a lot of fun to play and I enjoy every moment up in that setting. Also the greens at Meadow are no slouch. I was there with one guy who upon seeing the 9th green as we walked in, thought there wasn't much going on with internal contour. I bet him money that he couldn't get around with a 3 putt. I won the bet on the 1st hole.

[David Stamm]

 I was there with one guy who upon seeing the 9th green, thought there wasn't much going on with internal contour. I bet him money that he couldn't get around with a 3 putt. I won the bet on the 1st hole.

Pasa claims another with it's greens! "Never judge a book by it's cover". How many did he take at 8?

[Eric Franzen]

I just love to look at those old photos of Pasatiempo from the Julian Graham collection. Just wide open spaces and no claustrophobic tree corridors... I can only imagine how a major tree removal program would enhance the general character of the course. Still, it will remain a dream since it would be impossible to restore Pasatiempo like that due to the obvious security risks with certain tee shots and approaches.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - that's a great point and relevant story - Meadow's greens are maddening... I don't think I've ever seen as many awful misreads as I did yesterday, mostly from me, some from Benham.  And even Jon who's obviously played there a bunch did miss some makeable putts.  A bit might have had to do with the burst of poa seedheads... but that couldn't have been all of it.  Those greens are tough to figure.  And given they're generally so huge, three-putts are bound to happen.  First green saw it occur for two in our group!

David - Pasa does have killer greens for sure, but Ed's story was about Meadow.  

Eric - you and me both bruthah re those old photos.  God I'd love to see Pasa that way... in fact I have PINED away for that for years.  Love that awful pun.  But anyway of course it can't happen, but dare to dream.

 

[David Stamm]

David - Pasa does have killer greens for sure, but Ed's story was about Meadow.  

 

Sorry, should've paid closer attention!

[David_Tepper]

Tom H. -

I have only played Pasa a few times and not at all in the past 10-15 years. The only reason I can find to mark it down a bit is that several holes, mostly on the front 9, do feel a little bit crowded in and some of the housing feels awfullly close.

I have played the Meadow Club more often and more recently. I would agree that the course does not have as much texture/character as Pasa. However, the relative remote and isolated setting of the course does give it a very nice vibe that enchances the overall experience of being there.

Clearly, Pasa being a public course and right off of Highway 17, raises its profile a great deal. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine a more isolated location so near the Golden Gate Bridge than the Meadow Club.

DT

[Tim Leahy]

I only played the Meadow Club once and that was 20 years ago and I have played Pasa frequently because of public access and location. Pasa is near a resort town and on the way to Monterey, while MC is out of the way and I need to be invited. I honestly can't rember a singel hole on MC while I enjoyed it, it was not stunning enough to be remembered while Pasa has the first hole with a view, the 11th, 16th, and a par 3 18th which are memorable. Now that I am more aware of designer elements I would like to give the MC another look.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I may not have played many courses in the US but I have played both Pasatiempo and the Meadow Club.  Pasatiempo struck me as an incomparable one-off, much of the really fabulous stuff being made by brilliant use of the natural features such as the gully to be crossed on the 11th or the fabulous green site on the 10th.  The 16th green did not instantly appeal (and I don't think I liked the humpy fairway, even though I got on the green in two).  And yet I cannot remember very much about the 14th or the 6th, despite MacK's house being beside this particular fairway - so it's not all ultra-highly featured.

The Meadow Club has no holes that have quite such distinctiveness as the famous ones at Pasatiempo, but it adds up to quite a whole.  Perhaps the 10th, beside the practice ground, is the least interesting, yet I have very fond memories of a lot of the course.  I had the great fortune to play it at different stages of the restoration of the greens and what an eye-opener that proved to be!  What a difference they make!  

I really enjoyed both courses, but I have to say that Pasatiempo has, for me, a few more exciting holes.  However, the whole setting of peace and quiet, the deer roaming freely (actually not even bothering to move out of your way), the hawks only a few feet overhead, the wild turkeys scuttling across the course and the fact that not a single house is visible from the course give Meadow Club a very special place in my golfing memories.

[Josh Smith]

Current Day Match Play:

*(Pasa has a few holes yet to be restored, and results would vary all over the board if courses were both treeless and homeless and in the early 30's)

1 AS
2 AS
3 AS
4 AS
5 Meadow 1up
6 AS
7 Meadow 1up
8 Meadow 2up
9 Meadow 2up
10 Meadow 1up
11 Meadow 1up
12 Meadow 1up
13 Meadow 1up
14 Meadow 1up
15 AS
16 Pasatiempo 1up
17 Pasatiempo 1up
18 Pasatiempo 1up


Side items:

MacKenzies Home                                 Pasa
Lack of Homes                                     Meadow  
Tree encroachment                              Tie
Mackenzies First North American Design   Meadow
3 green                                              Meadow
16 green                                             Pasa  
10 tee shot                                         Pasa
Sean Tully vs. Bob Beck                         Tie
Clubhouse                                           Meadow
Hollins House                                       Pasa
Using own sod on restoration                  Meadow
Wildlife/Atmosphere/View                       Meadow
The undertaking of building it in '27         Meadow



         I would love to hear everyones current day match play between these two courses.

         Especially Tully and Mike DeVries to see how mine compares.  This is a really neat subject post in my opinion.

                                                      Josh

[Tom Huckaby]

More excellent thoughts on this - thanks, gents.  This is indeed what has me puzzling things.  I can't point to truly wow- fantastic holes at Meadow Club (although 5 is one hell of an Eden, and 16 is a fantastic short par 4 with a world-class green); at least not compared to the obvious greats at Pasa (10, 11, 16 if not 3, 13, 14).  But somehow the "whole" of Meadow does measure up pretty darn well to the "whole" at Pasa - especially now that Mr. Devries has done his magic there.

I'm thinking quite positively that as more people see it, the notoriety will grow.  BUT... it's easy to believe also that not enough people EVER really do to give it all that much traction.  I have a feeling the members there could give a hoot.  But who knows....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Josh:

That is really funny... as a reality check I too did a Ran match play and it also came out 1up for Pasa!  We arrived at it a little differently but the result was the same.  Good stuff.

Of the other items, I might give an edge to Meadow on the tree encroachment issue, now that 13-15 have had the wall of trees eliminated.  But that being said, there are also now a hell of a lot less trees between 1 and 9 at Pasa.  That's a tough call.  I might also give special note to tee shot and 2nd shot on 16 at Pasa; as well as approach to 11.  But then again we'd have to give note to approach to 16 and wild green at Meadow.  The rest I shall take your word for.  

[Josh Smith]

   If you take my match play and side notes and tell me I have ten rounds to play, I am playing Meadow 7 out of 10 times to 3 at Pasa.  The atmosphere sans housing and with wildlife is in short company among golden age courses (any courses for that matter) I have gotten to visit or work at.

Tom:

     Would you post your Match play, I would like to see how others opinions vary.

       
Josh

[Tom Huckaby]

My match play:

1 - Pasa - 1up
2 - half
3 - half
4 - half
5 - half
6 - half
7 - Meadow - even
8 - M - 1 dn
9 - half
10 - Pasa - even
11 - Pasa - 1up
12 - half
13 - half
14 - Pasa - 2up
15 - Meadow - 1up
16 - Pasa - 2up
17 - Meadow - 1up
18 - half

We differed on a lot of holes!  But the result came out the same.  16 was the toughest call for me... incredible hole at Meadow, but tough not to give the nod to MacKenzie's favorite par 4.

As for splitting ten rounds, well... the housing at Pasa doesn't bother me, and I do REALLY like the back nine at Pasa.  That being said, I too am a sucker for tranquility... I must have commented about that 50 times yesterday (Benham or Jon can confirm).  Still this is a tough call... Make it 5-5.  And that's a hellofa statement for me because I am one of the biggest fans of Pasa on this planet (outside of how much it freakin' costs to play there).

TH

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