[Tom_Doak]

I've been reading a lot this past week, and tonight stumbled across a short quote from one of my less frequently used sources, which reminded me of discussions herein:

"The highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may."

Anyone know where it came from (without Googling it)?

[Billsteele]

Tom-If I recall correctly, it is JFK in a tribute to Robert Frost.

[Michael Dugger]

Reading!!!

I thought golf course architects never had time for that!

[Michael Moore]

"Every day we slaughter our finest impulses. That is why we get a heartache when we read those lines written by the hand of a master and recognize them as our own, as the tender shoots which we stifled because we lacked the faith to believe in our own powers, our own criterion of truth and beauty."  - Henry Miller

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom
thanks - we finally get to the very heart of the matter, or at least it seems so to me.

It's the only approach that leads to both a variety of individual expression and a depth of collective experience.

I'd better stop now.  

Peter    

[JMorgan]

"Derivative writers seem versatile because they imitate many others, past and present.  Artistic originality has only its own self to copy."

[Adam_F_Collins]

That's what fundamentally separates Art from Design - the focus on the self above all else.

Art is essentially a process of the expression self, the physical manifestation individual perspectives.

Design is essentially a processes of negotiation. A social process to reach an agreement between two or more people, regarding existing problems and mutually satisfactory solutions.

Designers who follow the route of the artist, generally have a very limited market, or they sell a very accessible art - which the art establishment will disown.

Artists who follow the design route, generally fail as artists, become commercial artists or work collaboratively to a successful art practice.

Art necessarily abhors compromise; Design requires it to exist at all.

The long-standing idea that Art, 'truth' to the self, and an unwillingness to compromise is somehow the "highest" or "best", over the endeavors which seek agreement between people, have led to a great deal of the weakness of design functions, as well as to the idea that "there are no great collaborations".

Perhaps there are fewer, but I believe that may be because the achievement of greatness in collaborative effort to be much more difficult. Particularly within a society who holds the heroic individual above all else.

[TEPaul]

I wish I could remember what it was I was reading the other day that said the artist should essentially create for himself and perhaps those few he really respects. That sort of surprised me----I thought art was actually assumed to be a lot more commercial than just that.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've been reading a lot this past week, and tonight stumbled across a short quote from one of my less frequently used sources, which reminded me of discussions herein:

"The highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may."

Anyone know where it came from (without Googling it)?

Tom Doak,

I don't know who made the above quote, but, I'll bet that he read Hamlet and stole the phrase from olde Billy boy.

[Gary Daughters]

Adam,

I will give you the Beatles as an artistic endeavour that was both collaborative and commercially successful.  There are probably other examples.

But what the artist must fight isn't chiefly the impulse of another artist or group of artists (or non-artists), but the mediocrity that the market craves.

Conformity is in, and we elevate the individual much less than we say we do.

[Adam Sherer]

Tom-If I recall correctly, it is JFK in a tribute to Robert Frost.

"Let the chips fall where they may" is certainly an identifiable quote (I don't even know where its from, I just remember my grandfather talking about it)

"I took the road less traveled" is another memorable quote (cliche) from that writing.

Someone used the "road less traveled" quote at my high school graduation.


[Edit]
Regardless, Mr. Doak may be making a statement with this quote (thread). I immediately think of the "Tastemaking" discussion of late:
 Are architects trying to dictate "taste" or lettings the "chips fall where they may" in opinion to their work?

[TEPaul]

"The highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may."

Anyone know where it came from (without Googling it)?
 
 
Tom Doak,

I don't know who made the above quote, but, I'll bet that he read Hamlet and stole the phrase from olde Billy boy."




Patrick:

I don't think it was Shakespeare or from someone who read Shakespeare. It sound to me like a line out of Kenny Roger's  song "The Gambler"----

"You gotta to know when to hold em, you gotta to know when to fold em, ........"  
 
 

[Mark_F]

I wish I could remember what it was I was reading the other day that said the artist should essentially create for himself and perhaps those few he really respects. That sort of surprised me----I thought art was actually assumed to be a lot more commercial than just that.  

Stephen King is possibly the best example of that - he simply wrote what he wanted, but was good enough that millions of people were interested in his stories too.

[Adam_F_Collins]

...the Beatles as an artistic endeavour that was both collaborative and commercially successful...what the artist must fight (is) the mediocrity that the market craves.

Conformity is in, and we elevate the individual much less than we say we do.

I see what you're saying, Gary. However, here are some other ideas:

"In" can't exist without "conformity" they go hand in hand. To be "in" requires the collective agreement of many many people creating a "trend", which becomes mainstream. "We" can't celebrate anything without some level of conformity.

You mention "market". That varies. The "art market" is especially odd. A strange, temporal, rotating search for the 'new', or unique, or novel. However, the larger marketplace is a similar rotation on a larger scale.

Many of our greatest triumphs in creative work are collaborations. And I believe that the greatest yet to come lie in the effort to develop our collaborative power to new heights (in fact, I believe it to be imperative, and to some extent, unavoidable)

However, we should pay careful attention to the language all around us. The very ethos of our culture is in the ideal of the individual, the rebel, the hero, the heretic. We are, by nature a social being. But we have grown within a culture of selfishness. We believe in the one rising above the many. We search for the individual to give credit and glory to. "Who's the Director?", "Who's the star?", "Whose 'signature' design is this?" Somehow, we are not as comfortable finding our glory in amongst the efforts of others.

I've often said that I could sum up American Film in two words:

"One man..."

It sums up a lot of things.

[TEPaul]

MarkF:

Obviously there's an almost endless list of artists like that but then there were always the Van Goghs who could hardly give their art away.

[Lloyd_Cole]

“Bad artists copy. Good artists steal.” Picasso.

[TEPaul]

Lloyd:

When it comes to art I'd like to hear your personal take on your own. Come on, pal, fess up, what does it mean to you?

[Peter Zarlengo]

Tom's question begs another from me. It has probably already been discussed in length on this forum, but, IS GOLF DESIGN ART? The subtitle of Tom Doak's own book is The Art of Golf Architecture. Why? As far as I can see it golf design is part science, design, agronomy, planning, among other disciplines. Where does art fit in?

[George Pazin]

As far as I can see it golf design is part science, design, agronomy, planning, among other disciplines. Where does art fit in?

Figuring out the proper balance of all that.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've been reading a lot this past week, and tonight stumbled across a short quote from one of my less frequently used sources, which reminded me of discussions herein:

"The highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may."

Anyone know where it came from (without Googling it)?

It is a nice sentiment but for the most part, writers, artists, musicians, architects, authors, and even clergy are hired by someone. Most have a product in mind.

I think the real trick is to design, compose, write, preach etc. with integrity with the audience in mind. The great freedom is not to have to worry about the audience.  I have written three books for an audience and felt constrained by it.  I have one more book left in me.  It will be written for me. The question is, will anyone want to  publish it?

And yes it was JFK about Robert Frost.  I am old enough to remember it.

[Dan Kelly]

"The highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may."

Isn't that the highest duty -- not to mention the sternest challenge -- for everyone?

I'm not sure art has anything to do with it.

[Jim Nugent]

The quote is attributed to JFK about Robert Frost.  Wary as I am of politicians, I wonder if Jack himself actually wrote it, or it was one of his speechwriters, or ghostwriters, or publicists, or any of the throngs that attached themselves to the Kennedy dynasty.  

[Gary Daughters]

Adam,

Moments like these make me pine for a stronger grasp of Freud, Marx and McLuhan.  

Nonetheless, I think your description of the art market bolsters my point.  Newness, uniqueness and novelty exist on the level of trivia.  They are far removed from the uninhibited search for truth that Tom's original quote suggests.

I'm all for collaboration.  When it works, brainstorming really is a "force multiplier."  And it's true, one way or another we need to get along.

The problem, as I experience it, is that process usually becomes an end in itself, and when it reaches that point it's an ugly, reactionary beast.

Popular culture tends to pit our yearnings against our daily experience.  So if it celebrates the individual, what does that tell us?

[Tom_Doak]

Sorry, I was too busy reading (and then sleeping) to get back to this last night.  The quote was indeed JFK as Bill Steele answered almost immediately.

Tommy Williamsen's comment is interesting to me ... in the case of golf course architecture, I think being "true to oneself" also means being "true to one's perception of golf" and that does include the audience.  Tommy N's great friend Desmond Muirhead was being true to himself, but maybe not true to golf.

Peter Z.:  The art of golf course architecture is making it NOT APPEAR TO BE engineering or agronomy!

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd:

When it comes to art I'd like to hear your personal take on your own. Come on, pal, fess up, what does it mean to you?

Tom
I endeavour to create works of beauty, which I hope will enrich the lives of others as the beauty of Picasso, Reich, Cohen and Ferbert Fowler has enriched mine. Maybe not to that extent... but nothing is gained by aiming low. That side of things is quite simple really.
Trying to then take the work and make a living with it is another thing entirely and I've become most comfortable keeping these two - the main activities in my working life completely isolated from each other, as one rejects economics, and the other is economics .

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