[JeffTodd]

Mr. Doak lists his fourteen favorite links courses in the current issue of T&L Golf. I don't recall seeing this story posted and I thought it would be of interest to many in the group.

T&L Golf

[John Kavanaugh]

You really have to question Doak's cred including Bandon Dunes on the list.  I can agree with his own courses because I am sure they are worthy but really...Bandon Dunes as one of the great links courses in the world?  Maybe I'm just a cynic but...

[Tom_Doak]

Oh John, you do like to cause trouble don't you?

My point was that there are very few courses in America which could credibly be called "links" and that the two in Bandon had as good a case as any.  It certainly would've caused more angst if I'd listed Pacific Dunes and not Bandon Dunes.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I actually saved the issue after reading it. I thought it was a great read and enjoyed the observations including a few I disagree with. I totally agree with the content and context of the Bandon courses discussion. Spring is almost here in Indiana and John K aka Barny Frank will be in a better mood when he can go out and play golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think Pacific is a solid course that deserves to be on the list, if it is your list or not.  I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't know if the list is in any particular order of Tom's preference, more likely it's geographical, but I do love the high placement of North Berwick's West Links.  One thing I love there is that the beach is in play, versus Crail where it's out of bounds.  There isn't anything much more fun than playing a full iron shot off the hard sand over the berm to the second green after a major push off the tee!  

I am excited about playing both North Berwick and the Old Course next week....and also a first ever visit to Lundin Links.

Tom, was Muirfield not included because it's not a links course, or because you don't favor it as highly as the others?  A week from today will my first experience there and I will have a chance to see for myself!

[Matthew Hunt]

I have never played Bandon Dunes, I would like to make the point of saying that from the photos i've seen it looks like some less well known Irish or Welsh courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have never played Bandon Dunes, I would like to make the point of saying that from the photos i've seen it looks like some less well known Irish or Welsh courses.

I would say that explains why they remain less well known.

[Matthew Hunt]

I have never played Bandon Dunes, I would like to make the point of saying that from the photos i've seen it looks like some less well known Irish or Welsh courses.

I would say that explains why they remain less well known.

No mainly because of the coure's location and the fact that they were not done by a well known GCA.

There is lots of 'Gems' in Donegal but they will get better known when Tom D does his work there.

[Paul Payne]

Now you've made me curious.

If you allow the courses at Bandon to be used as examples of American links courses then couldn't you cite Sand Hills in that catagorie?

I guess what I'm really asking is: Strictly speaking is there a definitive difference between inland dunes and dunes by the sea?

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

I love Muirfield, but I didn't think it made a lot of sense to rehash a bunch of courses on the Open rota.  Heck, it would have been easy to make a list of 25 links courses I love.  Geographic diversity was one of the main criteria.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I guess what I'm really asking is: Strictly speaking is there a definitive difference between inland dunes and dunes by the sea?

Yes, it's called "the sea".  

[Paul Payne]

Thanks Garland,

I was wondering how long that one would take.

Seriously though, it has probably been discussed here before but if so I missed it.

I can imagine there are differences in wildlife and vegetation but that could be said when you compare a coastline in Australia or South Africa to the UK as well. So if we are talking about layers of natural vegetation and turf over sand, can you compare inland dunelands to seaside ones? What am I missing?

[Garland Bayley]

Links are land between the sea and the farmland beyond the dunes. The sea is integral to the definition of links.

[Paul Payne]

OK I get it.

So it is like..... even though they are both considered hues, red is not green by definition.

[Phil Benedict]

Links are land between the sea and the farmland beyond the dunes. The sea is integral to the definition of links.

Here is another quote in a similar vein:

Donald Steele, a well-known modern English architect and author of Classic Golf Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, defined "links" this way"

"My definition of links is the strip of land which links the sea with more fertile land, often set amongst dunes. The best terrain for golf is sand and that kind of land has minimal agricultural value -- which makes such places ideal."

[Paul Payne]

Phil,

The second portion of that definition seems an apt decription of the Sand Hills area.

I know I know..... green is not red.

[Tom Dunne]

In the case of Bandon, we have the presence of the sea, albeit from clifftops rather than the traditional low-lying linksland. However, as Doak says: "...alluvial deposits from the Coquille River are blown back ashore to create a sandy paradise for American golfers."

It's fine to split hairs, but the nature of the turf and the shots you can play around the greens at Pacific Dunes make it worthy of inclusion in my book. With certain factors (f&f, wind, a rugged natural setting) in place, "links" becomes a state of mind in my opinion....I definitely think the Bandon courses have an intensity of links feeling that I haven't always had at a few technically "true links".

[David_Tepper]

When reviewing the list, everyone should note that this is a list of the Tom D's "favorite" links courses, not necessarily a list of the ones he thinks are the "best" links courses. There is a difference between favorite and best.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Dunne - I'd agree with you.  But of course Paul is asking a relevant question also.  By the technical definition, neither Bandon Dunes nor Pacific Dunes is a links.  And if you are going to go beyond that definition, then why does Pacific Dunes qualify and others not?

Because if you want to base it on "the nature of the turf and the shots you can play around the greens", then Sand Hills most definitely qualifies.. as does Wild Horse near it....

TH

[Phil Benedict]

Phil,

The second portion of that definition seems an apt decription of the Sand Hills area.

I know I know..... green is not red.

I think the operative phrase is "strip of land which links the sea with more fertile land."  All trues links courses are on said "strip of land."

[Tom Dunne]

TH:

Oh, it's a great question, I agree. I've never been to Nebraska, but my understanding is that the sand hills were the sea floor before the beginning of our very-happy Cretaceous period raised the Rockies some 70 million years ago.



So...land reclaimed from the sea!

Anyway, I don't think I'd be shaking an indignant fist if Mr. Doak had offered up Sand Hills. It would be a stretch, sure, but I'm confident that a round there would trigger more positive links endorphins for me than a "true" links like, say, Harlech.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Dunne:  of course Pacific Dunes is close to the sea, and I unbelievably do get what Tom Doak meant about alluvial deposits blown up from the river.  But still, it is a stretch of the normal definition.

Love that graphic about what our continent looked like once though!  So of course Sand Hills is even more of a stretch....

So if there are shades of gray in this, well.... PD is a hell of a lot grayer than Sand Hills!

I can just understand also if someone wants to make it black and white... and if so, neither counts.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, according to that map Rock Creek is a links, too.

[Guy Phelan]

Mr. Doak lists his fourteen favorite links courses in the current issue of T&L Golf. I don't recall seeing this story posted and I thought it would be of interest to many in the group.

T&L Golf

Jeff,

Thanks for bringing this article to the forefront. The geographic variances that Tom has provided are vast and I envy the fact that he has witnessed so many!

As a true fan of links golf, some of the courses listed by Tom I could play every day; including Dornoch, Ballybunion, St. Andrews and Berwick. If I am ever fortunate enough to travel to some of the other destinations he has mentioned, I am sure that I will have further "favorites."

As far as Tom listing Bandon, why not? I have never had the pleasure to play it, but why not blow his own horn a bit. Tom is entitled to list his "favorites" just as we are able to list ours.

Guy

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