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Jay Flemma

Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« on: March 07, 2007, 10:30:28 PM »
It's not concrete yet, but I'm looking at possibly playing Whiskey creek next friday the 16th in the afternoon.  Might anyone be interested in batting it around with me for funsies, weather permitting?

Brian_Ewen

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 10:42:58 PM »
Please tell me there really is Whisky in the Creek .

Jay Flemma

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2007, 10:54:19 PM »
No but when you drink the whiskey, your joints creeek...err...creak.  Does that count?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 10:55:19 PM by Jay Flemma »

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2007, 08:21:13 AM »
I can't make it, but I did drive by Whiskey Creek two weeks ago.  I flew to Maryland for my father's birthday party, but the hotel room wasn't ready yet, and the kids needed to nap, so we drove west on 70 for a while.

It's beautiful country; more West Virginia than the Maryland I grew up in (DC suburbs).

And I promise not to get jealous that you're planning on playing golf next week.  The morning temperature has hovered around 2 degrees here (Massachusetts) this week, and on Tuesday the winds were about 30 MPH.

Paul Stephenson

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 08:35:08 AM »
I played Whiskey Creek last March and really enjoyed it.

Some really nice changes in elevation, especially the fifth hole.

I played PB Dye the same day, but if I had to do it again, would have taken Whiskey Creek up on their offer of cheap replays.

I hope you enjoy it.

Jimmy Chandler

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 11:55:35 AM »
I have played Whiskey Creek 3 times, and I think it's one of the best public courses in the DC area.  I may be available March 16th.  I just checked out their website and there are plenty of available afternoon tee times now -- twilight rates ($60 for Friday) start at 1 PM.

Jay Flemma

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 12:09:00 PM »
Yeah, Jimmy...after 1PM was right when I was thinking.  I'll be able to confirm by Monday, but it looks good.  I played it once before dead exhausted after a looooooooooong drive and in 40 degree weather.  In fact...I played it the EXACT same day last year, the friday of St. Patty's day.  So those of you that are envious with 2 degree weather, don't be, I froze my bee-hind and probly will again:)

Paul, glad to hear you and others liked it.  What is your (or anyone else's) thoughts on that wall in the middle of the 18th fairway.  It decreases width and airspace, but shouldn't a good player be able to negotiate it properly?  How does everyone feel about where its placed with regard to distance off the tee?

Mike Hoak

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 01:31:45 PM »
I actually like the placement of the ruins on 18.  It gives the better player something to think about off of the tee.  I should note that the wall is probably about 240-250 from the blue tees, so it takes a decent poke to even get it down that far.  I wish the landing area to the left were a bit wider though.  The fairway is very narrow on that left side and the angle of the fairway kicks everything toward the junk.  However, the challenge of playing to the left of the wall is aptly rewarded.  It's likely the only chance of getting on the green in two.   Last summer my brother-in-law placed a shot almost directly behind the wall and was forced to take a wedge and just pop it over.  I am certain his take on this question would be very different from my own.

Like others have already said, I think Whiskey Creek is one the top public courses in the area.  One of the major golf magazines ran a story years ago about the planning and development of the course.  It was written by Stephen Goodwin--the same person that wrote the recent book on Bandon.  I believe he was actually one of the developers on that project.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 01:37:37 PM by Mike Hoak »

Jerry Kluger

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 01:37:42 PM »
Jay: I could be convinced to leave my office and head out to the links - supposed to be in the 60s next week.  Let me know when your plans are firmed up.

peter_p

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 01:38:38 PM »
As with every 'hazard' its playability depands on which tees you play and how far you hit the ball. Just some fleeting recollections since I played there early Oct 01 and the flags were US flags (how do you lay it down for putting?). I pulled it left of the ruins and still had zero chance of carrying the hazard. I did play to 18 fairway to open up the 17th green.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 01:42:01 PM by Peter Pittock »

Paul Stephenson

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 01:57:29 PM »
I liked the placement of the ruins.  I'm not a long hitter to start with, and we were into a decent wind that day so there was no question of it being a 3 shot hole.  My drive was to the right.  If I remember, it's no fun hitting a wedge into a strong wind on that hole either.

Another hole I remember as enjoying was the par 3 11th.  A long, narrow green with nowhere to miss.

Does anyone know the extent of  Els' involvement in the design?  If he had a large part in it that's quite a debut, and I'll be looking forward to another Els course in the lower 48.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 01:58:36 PM by Paul Stephenson »

Jimmy Chandler

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 04:00:56 PM »
I also like the placement of the ruins, they require a good poke to get past, but it is doable if you're playing from the correct tees.  If I remember correctly, the tee shot does play quite a bit downhill.

I also agree it would be better if there was a little more fairway left of the ruins, that would create more incentive for risking that route.

Here's a photo of the ruins, taken late in the afternoon, from the left side of the fairway (I was standing between the ruins and the green):


Jay Flemma

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 04:38:12 PM »
Last summer my brother-in-law placed a shot almost directly behind the wall and was forced to take a wedge and just pop it over.  I am certain his take on this question would be very different from my own.

what about playing THROUGH the "window" :o

I've always said I'd like to par that hole after playing a shot through the window hole of the ruins...

Jerry, excellent...so far we have three.  I'll let everyone know as soon as I hear back from my friend.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 04:38:32 PM by Jay Flemma »

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 08:31:04 PM »
I played Whiskey Creek's second nine back in 04.  Overpriced, I felt, but things may have changed.  
In regards to the ruins on 18, there's plenty of fairway around them, and I felt it was a cool visual from the tee.  Not something you'd like to have around all the time, but for a once-in-a-while.  Not a bad course, but Maryland, IMO, was sort of a very mixed bag, for quality of public golf courses.  

I believe there were some older posts on Whiskey Creek and Els' involvement.  

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Jay Flemma

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2007, 08:34:23 PM »
You are right $95 is alot, but all those daily fee courses in DC are that price except Tom Jackson's stonewall whoch is 110!  See Raspberry Falls as an example...

The one exception is Augustine...which is maybe $55ish?

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2007, 09:08:47 PM »
Most of the better daily fee courses in the DC area are priced at $80 - $110 on weekend mornings.  According to the Augustine website, they are $74.50 on weekends until 2 PM starting in April.  Raspberry, Westfields, Musket Ridge, PB Dye, Renditions, Stonewall, etc etc etc are all expensive courses (however you would rate these courses as a golf experience, I'm just naming some of the courses that come to mind).  Even the new Laurel Hill in Lorton, VA, a very good muni owned by Fairfax County, is $79 on the weekend.

There are few good-to-great golf in the DC area at any sort of value -- The Oaks at Twin Lakes (I think an underrated muni, though in the past it had conditioning problems that they're now working on) is $45 on weekends to walk, Shenandoah Valley Golf Club is $50 (cart required on weekend mornings), though their rates go as low as $12 to walk on a weekday after 2 PM. I cannot think of anything else at $50 or less that's worth much of your golfing time within an hour's drive of the beltway.

Jason Mandel

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 09:55:54 PM »
Jay,

Next friday is the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.  How can anyone think about golf on that thurs/fri??? ;D ;D ;D

I can guarentee you the course will be yours for the taking if you decide to play!

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2007, 10:04:35 PM »
Anyone up for Atlantic City CC in a week? Opening season rates!
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Jay Flemma

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2007, 10:11:47 PM »
Jay,

Next friday is the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.  How can anyone think about golf on that thurs/fri??? ;D ;D ;D

I can guarentee you the course will be yours for the taking if you decide to play!

Jason

That's the idea...plus they have night games!

Andy Hughes

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2007, 09:52:12 AM »
Quote
I cannot think of anything else at $50 or less that's worth much of your golfing time within an hour's drive of the beltway.

Tsk, tsk, is nobody (other than JasonM) familiar with the subtle joys of little Glenn Dale? Guess I will have to post more pics and commentary this season.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 09:52:57 AM by AHughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Andy Hughes

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2007, 09:53:27 AM »
Jay, you guys already have 4?  Slim chance I can make it.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2007, 05:31:50 PM »
Quote
I cannot think of anything else at $50 or less that's worth much of your golfing time within an hour's drive of the beltway.

Tsk, tsk, is nobody (other than JasonM) familiar with the subtle joys of little Glenn Dale? Guess I will have to post more pics and commentary this season.


Andy --

I have never played Glenn Dale, but I just took a look at your photos.  Looks interesting and fun.  I'd definitely make the trip around the beltway sometime this year (I live in Arlington) if I can find someone interested.

But I think my larger point remains unchallenged: there is very little memorable, affordable golf within the DC area.  Even one of the two courses I quoted is in Front Royal -- which is almost an hour from where the Beltway meets I-66, and therefore much further for many people in the area.

Have you played Twin Lakes?  If so, how would you compare it to Glenn Dale?

Andy Hughes

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2007, 07:26:17 PM »
Quote
I cannot think of anything else at $50 or less that's worth much of your golfing time within an hour's drive of the beltway.

Tsk, tsk, is nobody (other than JasonM) familiar with the subtle joys of little Glenn Dale? Guess I will have to post more pics and commentary this season.


Andy --

I have never played Glenn Dale, but I just took a look at your photos.  Looks interesting and fun.  I'd definitely make the trip around the beltway sometime this year (I live in Arlington) if I can find someone interested.

But I think my larger point remains unchallenged: there is very little memorable, affordable golf within the DC area.  Even one of the two courses I quoted is in Front Royal -- which is almost an hour from where the Beltway meets I-66, and therefore much further for many people in the area.

Have you played Twin Lakes?  If so, how would you compare it to Glenn Dale?

Jimmy, I'd be happy to join you at Glenn Dale this year.  It would be worth your time to make the trip across the river. Its certainly not a top-whatever course but there are a number of interesting holes/greens.
(Oh yeah, I agree with your point by the way)

PS No, I have not played Twin Lakes---36 holes, isn't it? Not even sure where it is.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Jay Flemma

Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2007, 07:32:13 PM »
Hughesy, I'll know more on Monday evening after I talk to WC, but I think we'll have the place to ourselves on a wintry friday afternoon in march during the NCAA tournament. :D

Jimmy Chandler

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Re:Anybody for whiskey creek in MD next friday?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2007, 12:02:29 PM »
PS No, I have not played Twin Lakes---36 holes, isn't it? Not even sure where it is.

Yes, 36 holes, in Clifton, VA (near Centreville), just a few minutes from Westfields.  I wrote it up briefly here in the thread about your home club: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6627;start=msg427332#msg427332.  I just re-read that post and have made a few edits below to reflect my current opinion and some changes to the course:

The older layout, the Lakes (1967), is a fun change of pace occasionaly for the better golfer and perfect for the higher handicapper.  The Lakes is more open with fewer hazards that come into play -- only three holes have significant trouble on both sides of the fairway -- but it has simpler green complexes and is less visually interesting.

My biggest complaint about the Oaks was its conditioning -- but they installed new turf in all the fairways last year and that has made quite an improvement.  The course is hilly but walkable -- but the cart path only policy (because of the new turf) should slow down play to a certain extent.

I find that the Oaks offers the best combination of balanced holes, challenging but fair (especially for the mid handicapper like myself), decent pace of play (the Lakes tends to get a lower quality of golfer and therefore play slower), walkable, and attractive (no surrounding homes) that's within 30-40 minutes of where I live.  The design is straight forward, with the occasional blind shot and bit of deception; the fairways are wide but trouble happens if you miss them by much (the Oaks is a fair title -- there are many heavily treed areas with thick underbrush).  Greens have some slope, but putts that don't have an obvious big swing due tend to break less than you will read; these subtle breaks can make it tough for the first timer to score well.  The course is not the toughest for a low handicapper, but quite difficult for the mid or high handicapper.  The white tees ratings are 70.7/135 for 6316 yards (from the tips it plays 6700 yards witrh ratings of 72.5/137).

[note: all yardages provided are from the white tees]

I think the biggest reason I have made this my home course is that I like the balance in holes: about an equal number of dogleg left vs. right; a good mix of long and short holes (par 3s range from 130 to 217 yds, par 4s from 300 to 435 yds).  And the par fours are especially strong: 5 of them are between 300-350 yds, but they each feel different and test different types of shots.  Several of them appear to be much easier than they play (at least for me). Yet two of the par fours are around 430 yds from the white tees, #2 has a 190 yard carry over a pond from the tee, then the second shot plays all uphill to a well guarded green on the front-left and a bailout area to the right.  The middle of the back nine includes a brutal stretch of four holes, the easiest of which is another 430 yd par four.

This winter the combined the tees, so you only had two options, up ro back tees.  Some days the back tees were positioned from the normal blue tees, other days they moved them up to the normal white tees.  

One other interesting quirk: most of the tree-lined areas are red staked.  I believe this is to speed up play; I wonder what GCAers think of this policy.