This past fall, my parents were visiting me in Denver and I brought my mom to play Wellshire one morning (mom, not dad, is the golfing parent in my family).  I chose Wellshire because it's close to my house and it's similar to Midwestern courses, with which my mom is familiar.

To my surprise, I realized that Wellshire is not at all a friendly course to women.  In many instances, they simply placed the women's tee markers 10 yards ahead of the regular men's tees and called the hole a par 5 (or a par 4 instead of a 3).  I think the card for women says it's a par 76.  My mom's a pretty good player, but the length was too much.  I don't blame her--I wouldn't particularly want to play a par 76.  

My question is this:  would Ross or whoever designed or built Wellshire have put in women's tee pads?  Were these taken out or did they never exist?  How did the Golden Age architects handle women's tees?

was playing the other day when a course had those stupid women tees only 10 yards ahead...

...made me think that if I was a woman - like the one I was playing with - I'd just march down the fairway and stick a peg in the ground in the fairway 50 or 75 or whatever yards ahead

that seems to make so much sense to me, but I've never seen it done

In my experience part of the problem is this idea of "women's" tees.  I have played many times with men who would benefit from moving forward a set of tees but of course they would not consider it because they are "women's" tees.

My most enjoyable golfing experience was at Barnbougle Dunes.  There are no specific tees based on gender.  Instead, in the proshop you tell them your average score and they recommend a set of tees.  You only get the score card for those tees but I think that it says players are encouraged to play from any tee box which captures their interest.

Another problem I have found is that quite often the front tees are just that - in front.  Sometimes moving the angle, elevation etc can make a huge difference.

I also find that there are few short par fives or short par fours.  Less of the variation in length that there is from the back tees.  Consequently my game becomes less strategic and more a case of hit it as far as possible - then hit it as far as possible again.

I have occasionally played back a set of tees for variation.  Perhaps some men out there might benefit from moving forward to the front tees for a round - I don't imagine it would take much to gain an appreciation of how small changes to the tee box positioning could improve enjoyment.

Whether its a wife, girlfriend, mom, sister, daughter, whatever, we all have someone that makes us realize that women's tees are largely assonine (in their design, placement, and fairness).

It is an issue that will need to be addressed, especially to keep women interested in the game. Women are an increasing percentage in the golfing population and as such their abilities (and pride) should be acknowledged.

A question: Is there any course that has a women's tee behind a men's tee?  (ie a par 5 for women @ 430 - 460 yards and a par 4 for men @ 400 - 420 yards, where women would tee off first?) Did I explain that well enough?

As a sidebar - I would ask that men consider the women they play golf with.  I almost never get to have the honour even if I have earned it.  If it will not slow down play - consider giving lady golfers the honour if they have earned it.

That is kind of what I was thinking with the women's tee behind mens tee question.  I think that women would appreciate the honor of teeing off first and men would begin to admire the "forward" tees.

During the recent restoration project at my club, the most opposition and difficulty we ran across was trying to create new women's/forward tees.

Even though it was clearly pointed out that the course was extremely long for the women members, they were very opposed to the addition of more proper tees.  

With the equivalent yardages taken into account, we explained that the women are playing a course that would equal about 8000 yards for the average man.

Based on the opposition, apparently the majority of women at our club enjoy hitting drivers into the par 3's and rarely if ever reaching a green in regulation.  I don't get it.

How about a tee in the fairway?

I noticed this at the Valley club on number 9 and I don't understand why this is not done more often, maybe I am missing something?

As long as the fairway is flat would anyone really be against this? I would rather see tee markers in the fairway than a 5th set of tees.

Here is what I am talking about, can you find the tee box?

























































O..... here it is:







I really don't understand why 3 sets of tees can not accommodate every skill level of golfer as long as the architect puts some thought into his tee placements. Is there a lot of demand from clients to add 4+ sets of tees because that is the norm and how we are supposed to make the game playable for everyone?

"Based on the opposition, apparently the majority of women at our club enjoy hitting drivers into the par 3's and rarely if ever reaching a green in regulation.    I don't get it."

Jamie:

If that's true that your women's tees play for your women members like an 8,000yd course for good men, and your women members actually like that kind of thing and oppose a shorter more reasonable course, that situation (preference) really does need to be looked into very carefully as to what it means!!

I'm certainly not denying they feel that way because we apparently found somewhat the same thing at GMGC. We created a number of shorter tees recently to address the concern that the course was too long for some women members. I've heard a number of them complain that made the course too easy for them.

Of course my first reaction was to tell the ones who complained to just play the longer women's tees but perhaps they feel the distance differential is too great. Or perhaps they are thinking of something else entirely of which we may not be aware.  

However, if they really do enjoy playing a course that is seemingly too long for them, perhaps we need to take a much closer look at what the whole idea of playing to a green in "regulation" means.

I do know that the theoretical "bogey" male golfer is assumed to hit a drive 200 yards and only capable (distance-wise) of reaching a 370 yard par 4 in two shots. Obviously there is the same theoretical distance guidelines for women in a rating sense. And we can't deny that in various handicap brackets the distance players are capable of hitting a golf ball varies tremendously. We also can't deny that all tees are rated for both the scratch and bogey player (at least I think they are).

So perhaps women or some portion of them are not even supposed to reach their par holes in what we consider to be a regulation number of shots.

It seems to me that something is seriously falling through the cracks here.

All I can think of is various women over time have gotten used to playing golf in a certain way and maybe for them that now includes not being able to reach some holes in what WE think is "regulation". I realize that's hard to believe and seems counter-intuitive to us but how else can it be explained if they really do oppose a course length that allows them to hit more greens in fewer shots, at least potentially distance-wise?

BTW, the hole at Newcastle that my wife refers to above (long par 3 for men, short par 4 for women) is the third. Any Newcastle members around? It's a great hole, 240 yards or so for men and women from an elevated tee. The shortest part 4 my wife has ever played and the longest par 3 I have ever played. And great fun for both of us just for that reason!

... it is a fact that women make up a miniscule portion of rounds played. It is very difficult economically for a golf course operator to cater to such a minority of his customer base.

Maybe, just maybe, if golf-course operators "catered to" this minuscule minority by making their courses more fun for that minuscule minority to play (even over their initial objections), they would find this part of their customer base growing?

And maybe, along with the women, more seniors and young golfers would find their courses more attractive?

Doesn't seem there's much future in catering exclusively to men of certain ages.

Dan

I take my wife to a nice resort in Hawaii. The price tag for golf is $275.00 per player. I ask her (25+ handicap) if she wants to play golf or take the $275 and go shopping. There is only one answer....shopping. Why bother?

The majority of women golfers (the few that there are) do not have nearly the passion for the game that men do. I would rather try to get an extra round or two from an avid male golfer who will bring three buddies than try to create a warm and fuzzy atmosphere for a minority who aggrevate my core customers.

Many women are accused of playing slow. You would play so too if you shot 135 and could not reach any holes in regulation. The solution is to put a set of tee patios at 4,700 yards and let the women have at it.

Dan

I take my wife to a nice resort in Hawaii. The price tag for golf is $275.00 per player. I ask her (25+ handicap) if she wants to play golf or take the $275 and go shopping. There is only one answer....shopping. Why bother?

The majority of women golfers (the few that there are) do not have nearly the passion for the game that men do. I would rather try to get an extra round or two from an avid male golfer who will bring three buddies than try to create a warm and fuzzy atmosphere for a minority who aggrevate my core customers.

Many women are accused of playing slow. You would play so too if you shot 135 and could not reach any holes in regulation. The solution is to put a set of tee patios at 4,700 yards and let the women have at it.

I'd like to show my wife that quote and lock you in a room with her.Only one of you's coming out aliveand I don't rate your chances.

Seriously, my wife grew up in Scotland and has played golf since her father thought he could safely leave her with the pro while he sneaked off.  I didn't play golf until we met, it was her who got meintothe game.  Having kids may have lessened the amount she plays but she's still keen and competitive.

Back in 1992 when I was still very much a beginner, her father took us to play at Muirfield the week after the Open.  At that time Lorna was a low teens handicap and she has always been reasonably long for a woman golfer (even back then before thin titanium faces she drove well over 200 yards, albeit with a low, running trajectory).  Muirfield didn't have women's tees at all back then and the tee boxes hadn't been moved up from where the pros had played.  There were several holes where none of us could make the carry to the fairway.  A couple of years later we went back, still noladies tees and still a few holes where the carry to the fairway was simply impossible for her.

Muirfield aside I suspect most Scottish clubs have sensible ladies tess, though that's for ladies who are golfers.  Lorna would no more want to play a course that's 4000 yards long with no par 4s over 300 yards than I would.

During the recent restoration project at my club, the most opposition and difficulty we ran across was trying to create new women's/forward tees.

Even though it was clearly pointed out that the course was extremely long for the women members, they were very opposed to the addition of more proper tees.  

With the equivalent yardages taken into account, we explained that the women are playing a course that would equal about 8000 yards for the average man.

Based on the opposition, apparently the majority of women at our club enjoy hitting drivers into the par 3's and rarely if ever reaching a green in regulation.  I don't get it.

Many women have gotten used to playing fairway woods, and have gotten quite good at it.  That is, it's a more predictable shot than her wretched six-iron - so guess which shot makes for better strategizing?  Strategy is near to impossible without a consistent shot!  Plus, it's always fun to see the ball go as far as you can hit it, so fairway woods are more fun than irons in the long run.  Finally, fairway woods are more likely to skip through a bunker.