From Tim McDonald at WorldGolf.com:

Nicklaus wants tougher golf courses

You say golf's too hard? You're not alone. The difficulty of the game is often cited by those who give the game up for good.


There is a loud contingent that is calling on golf course architects to make courses easier. Jack Nicklaus is not among them. Nicklaus says golf courses in the U.S. are too easy.


"Most of the people in the United States want it as wide as they can get it and no trouble and want it easy as it can be," Nicklaus said in a recent interview. "If you go to the rest of the world, you'll fine most of the golf courses are very narrow, very demanding, very penal, and they don't really cater on a daily basis to the average golfer. They cater to the game of golf.


"You've got to learn to adapt your golf game to what the challenges are. In the States, it's a lot the other way. When these kids grow up in the States, most of these courses they grow up on are fairly user-friendly and they don't challenge you."


Nicklaus was talking mainly about why American golfers, mainly the pros, are so lousy at match play. The other reason, of course, is that young golfers in the U.S. are brought up mainly on medal play, and rarely go head-to-head.


Nicklaus is golf's designated curmudgeon, and it's a mantle he wears well. He's right that young American golfers don't play enough match play, but when he starts talking about making American courses more difficult, he comes off as a grouchy, old man.


I've played a ton of European courses, and they are indeed harder, from the big-name courses to the ones in the hinterlands set up for average Europeans. Conversely, I've played with a lot of Europeans on American courses, and I've never heard one complain they were too easy.


I don't think the idea of making courses harder will be all that popular among U.S. golf course owners, or U.S. golfers for that matter. We aren't all Jack Nicklaus. We don't all play in the Ryder Cup. Most of us play the game for fun.

Did Mr. N mention anything about F&F conditions in other places?  This might add to the difficulty. I know that conditions are on his radar re. the rakes at last years Memorial.

As a general question, why would you design courses that cater to about 1% of the golfing population?

It's stuff like this (and something else on another JN thread) that makes you want to see Tiger obliterate Jack's majors record.

Jack may be the biggest blowhard in the universe!

I wonder if this is taken out of context.  It sounds to me like he is touting such courses for developing top notch talent.  

I doubt he is arguing for tougher courses in general.  Nicklaus frequently has talked about his design philosophy of creating second shot courses, with width off the tee but challenge into the green.  He has been consistent in his criticisms of Augusta due to the narrowing of the course, citing in particular the impact on the every day player.

The more recent Nicklaus courses I have played have been so wide in the fairways that they are boring off the tee.  I believe that if courses have wide fairways, they nonetheless need to be present interesting challenges off the tee.

Western Am
US Am
North and South
US Publinx
US Junior
Western Junior- until a few years ago
Walker Cup

I continue to not understand how people say that American golfers are brought up on medal play. These are the IMPORTANT championships for an amateur under the age of 23 and for the juniors.

What you are missing here is that probably less than 1% of junior and younger golfers ever have a chance to play in these prestigious events that award their championships via match play.  Also, almost every event you have listed is preceded by some stroke-play qualifying event.  

When I grew up, we played match play in high school, which helped me foster a love for that version of our game.  I doubt there are many places left where high school matches are contested via match play.  All the scores I see these days are aggregate strokes for a team total in relation to par.  Also, college matches are nearly exclusively contested at stroke play.  

It is Jack's belief that US courses are easier for the accomplished golfer as compared to overseas.  Is that the general belief of most designers.  I have never been outside the US.  If this is the case do golfers overseas complain as much as american golfers.  My senses tell me no.  The american golfer is spoiled and dumb.

Quote from: Darren deMaille on March 01, 2007, 11:16:56 AM

It is Jack's belief that US courses are easier for the accomplished golfer as compared to overseas.  Is that the general belief of most designers.  I have never been outside the US.  If this is the case do golfers overseas complain as much as american golfers.  My senses tell me no.  The american golfer is spoiled and dumb.

I'm not a designer but I don't think that's an unfair assessment.  Easier equipment makes it easier to hit the ball farther and straighter, and we do so on courses that are increasingly less penal.  If I've noticed a particular trend on courses built over the past ten years it's of looking harder (faroff heathery vistas) and playing easier (eg, concave fairway construction).  It's about following the money.  One very easy way for an architect to please his 12-handicap client(s) is giving him a place he can shoot 78.

Not sure that's true in the UK.  The most expensive green fee in Northumberland and the coursemost golfers would consider the "best" course is the Hunting Course at Slaley Hall.  It's a ball-breaker (and IMHO a lousy golf course) but fully occupied by green fee playing golfers.  Many far better (in terms of design and playability) and cheaper courses are far less golfed.  A lot of players like their golf courses hard. Many consider the par 4 9th (steeply uphill, 250 yards with a stream cutting the narrow fairway on driving length) to be the best holeon the course even though even very good golfers are happy with a 5.

Jeff, Beside generalizing, Jack could be justifying his designs. Designs that for the most part are penal in nature. IMO, they ignore core principals and his statements try to justify that fact, in hindsight, because American pro golfers are easily satisfied with tenth place finishes.

Quote from: Glenn Spencer on February 28, 2007, 04:03:50 PM

Western Am
US Am
North and South
US Publinx
US Junior
Western Junior- until a few years ago
Walker Cup

I continue to not understand how people say that American golfers are brought up on medal play. These are the IMPORTANT championships for an amateur under the age of 23 and for the juniors.

What you are missing here is that probably less than 1% of junior and younger golfers ever have a chance to play in these prestigious events that award their championships via match play.  Also, almost every event you have listed is preceded by some stroke-play qualifying event.  

When I grew up, we played match play in high school, which helped me foster a love for that version of our game.  I doubt there are many places left where high school matches are contested via match play.  All the scores I see these days are aggregate strokes for a team total in relation to par.  Also, college matches are nearly exclusively contested at stroke play.  

Chris,

Take another look at Nicklaus' quote. The 1% percent that you are referring to are the exact 1% percent that are moving on to the PGA Tour.

Jeff my point is that you only hear of americans saying the courses are too hard in the U.S. when in fact if we assume jack is correct when they go overseas they enjoy the difficulty and do not complain about it.  Which i think is the opposite with the europeans  I wish more people would just play golf instead about complaining about how hard or easy the courses are.  American golfers are spoiled and dumb.  

American golfers are spoiled and dumb.  

Well why don't you tell us how you really feel?  I think you might want to ammend that broad sweeping over-generalization. Don't make me turn lose the Huck on you  

mike,the next time you get a bad lie in the fairway without complaining will be when indursky and i go out to dinner.  we are spoiled. including me.  Jack has a local rule at the bear's club "a ball resting in a sanded divot may be treated as ground under repair"  He doesn't think it is fair to hit a good shot that lands in a divot.  He's spoiled, I am spoiled, we are all spoiled.  We all complain every single one of us about conditions and difficulty or lack there of a course