How long is a 'drivable' par 4?

« **on:** February 27, 2007, 10:46:36 PM »

Assuming average 'normal' environmental conditions and level ground...

« **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2007, 10:51:25 PM »

It's not just length but the green complex too.

Kingston Heath's 3rd is only about 270 metres, so it is reachable, but not driveable.

Woodlands' 13th is a similar length, and although not protected by a bunker in the manner of KH's 3rd, I doubt that it is driveable, although it is definitely reachable too.

Anything under 300m seems to be driveable these days.

In the Royal Melbourne Centenary book there is mention of an Argentinian player who was famed for his length in part because he could drive the old 3rd composite green.

It is 304 metres, and nowadays everyone apart from me can drive it.

« **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2007, 10:57:24 PM »

Adam,

Mark makes a good point that this is very dependent on the green surrounds. I played a 290 yard par four the other day with a pond in front, which for most of made it a lay-up + wedge hole. Another hole on another course was 330 yards, but downhill and downwind I managed to put it about 15 yards from the front of the green.

There's so many variables (and obviously what is drivable depends mainly on the golfer too), that I can't see picking a specific yardage. For some it might even depend on whether the hole favors a draw or fade.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2007, 11:00:27 PM »

Well, if the 10th at Riviera is a three-wood at 315 yards, then........

« **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2007, 11:18:20 PM »

Adam,

This past weekend in Tuscon is was 357 yards!

I know Tuscon is a bit above sea level, but guys were flying it to the front part of the green with regularity.

« **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:31:19 AM »

That's true, all depends on what's in front of the green.

I play a muni in Sacramento called Wildhawk Golf Club.

The 1st hole plays 342 yards from the tips, and there's a left green side bunker. It's a driveable par 4 from the different sets of tee boxes, as the green is pretty wide open, and the course is usually running pretty fast in the summer and fall. You can really run it up and get some good roll.

On the same course, there's a 310 yard par 4 that's a dogleg right about 3/4 of the way into the hole, with the hole wrapped around a lake. To drive that hole, it's 100% carry over the lake, even if the pin is in front. It's driveable only from the tees up a bit, as from the tips, it's quite a daunting task.

I would say realistically, for the average golfer, anything that is 315 or shorter could be driveable, depending on the tees and what's around the green.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:52:06 AM »

The only answer is "it depends"....what's normal environmental conditions? A cool day at sea level on a waterlogged course or a hot July afternoon on the sand hills of Nebraska when it hasn't rained for a few weeks?

All I know is that whatever the length, it is a lot longer than it used to be!

There's a course in town that opened about 20 years ago, with one par 4 that's just over 300 yards as the crow flies and steeply uphill the last 80 or 90 yards, and another that's 328 and pretty much level with just a hint of a dogleg that means to get there from the back tee (with a straight shot) you have drive over the top of the left edge of a 150 year old oak tree. I couldn't even think about either as a college student when it opened, now I have to wait for both greens to clear before teeing off except when the conditions are pretty unfavorable.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2007, 04:45:48 AM »

Quote from: Ramon Ware on February 28, 2007, 12:31:19 AM

That's true, all depends on what's in front of the green.

I play a muni in Sacramento called Wildhawk Golf Club.

The 1st hole plays 342 yards from the tips, and there's a left green side bunker. It's a driveable par 4 from the different sets of tee boxes, as the green is pretty wide open, and the course is usually running pretty fast in the summer and fall. You can really run it up and get some good roll.

On the same course, there's a 310 yard par 4 that's a dogleg right about 3/4 of the way into the hole, with the hole wrapped around a lake. To drive that hole, it's 100% carry over the lake, even if the pin is in front. It's driveable only from the tees up a bit, as from the tips, it's quite a daunting task.

I would say realistically, for the average golfer, anything that is 315 or shorter could be driveable, depending on the tees and what's around the green.

I guess that depends on your definition of average golfer. Most "average" golfers at my club aren't in the habit of hitting 315 yard drives.

« **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:26:39 PM »

These days, it almost seems like they can call any hole under 400 yards "Driveable" .....

____

In another thought, if a hole IS in fact legitimately driveable, it would seem that only water, lost balls or O.B. would be the only thing that would prevent a player from having a go. You need something that'll make a player likely take at least four more strokes from near the green if he fails to hit the green. Otherwise, there's no risk, therefore no strategy

« **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:48:06 PM »

A driveable par 4 is precisely 311 yards---no more and no less. Any par 4 that is not 311 yards should never be considered to fall into the category of a 'driveable' par 4.

And that's all there is to it!

Next question.

« **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:17:04 PM »

Quote from: Mark Pearce on February 28, 2007, 04:45:48 AM

Quote from: Ramon Ware on February 28, 2007, 12:31:19 AM
That's true, all depends on what's in front of the green.

I play a muni in Sacramento called Wildhawk Golf Club.

The 1st hole plays 342 yards from the tips, and there's a left green side bunker. It's a driveable par 4 from the different sets of tee boxes, as the green is pretty wide open, and the course is usually running pretty fast in the summer and fall. You can really run it up and get some good roll.

On the same course, there's a 310 yard par 4 that's a dogleg right about 3/4 of the way into the hole, with the hole wrapped around a lake. To drive that hole, it's 100% carry over the lake, even if the pin is in front. It's driveable only from the tees up a bit, as from the tips, it's quite a daunting task.

I would say realistically, for the average golfer, anything that is 315 or shorter could be driveable, depending on the tees and what's around the green.
I guess that depends on your definition of average golfer. Most "average" golfers at my club aren't in the habit of hitting 315 yard drives.

True... but for some of the fellas that I play with, that's pretty routine.

There's another local course, Mather Golf Course, that has a 290 yard par 4, which is considered driveable from the tees. It's downhill a bit, and generally plays downwind.

« **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:48:57 PM »

It should be longer than your average driver distance, but about the same length as your longest driver distance - leading to overswings.

Not considering conditions like wind - if I can hit one 240 comfortably, and 275 if I get lucky - it should be 285 yards long.

« **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:56:33 PM »

if oakmont gets firm and fast and with a 15 mph downwind, somebody will drive the 1st green (probably over green since the ball won't stop...

that's 487 yards

« **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2007, 02:48:37 PM »

Jeremy,
What's wrong with a 290 yard par 4 without water,OB,lost ball potential?
i.e. one that asks you to have a go without risking double, but provides subtle challenges on or around the green,and maybe has a preferred angle to approach from.
This would allow the thoughtful player to employ strategy, yet not make the choices so obvious.

Not all driveable par 4s require obvious in-your-face risk reward-
It's just testing a different skill set, the same as a really long par 3.
and so be it if it's an easier hole

« **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2007, 04:17:24 PM »

Jeremy:

if there's too much trouble around the green, nobady will go for it, so there's no strategy

a good player stand on a tee and see water protecting a big part of the green, he would say: ok a can hit a 5-iron and have a simple pitch or a very risky tee shot?

one thing in your same vision to me is: on a driveable par 4, i wouldn't want players that drive it on or close to the green to automatically have a birdie putt from inside 5 feet after a mediocre chip or putt.

it would be hard for players to make 5 from 45 feet from the hole after their tee shot, but it shouldn't a guaranteed 3

so

a slopy green with a couple of bunkers protecting it can be enough for me.

« **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:05:12 PM »

How about...

From the back tees for a top player:

A stepped on 3-wood / Finesse Driver. What's that these days about 315.

In reality it's as much about the green and surrounds as distance.

When playing our RED tee tournament this summer we identified some great reachable par 4 type holes... one as short as 275 with no major hazards and many a 6 were made.

Another at 307 would be a phenomenal par 4.

If you happen to get to Cabo and play The Ocean Course play holes 8 and 10 from the Red tees... pretty interesting.

« **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:14:36 PM »

Jeff,

I see nothing wrong with a hole the way you describe it. The thing is, without a severe hazard near the green, chances are the player will make a four from near the green even if he misses his drive. So there is really no strategy off the tee: bash it, find it, then it's a short game test. Again, nothing wrong with that, but no real risk-reward strategy.

Phil,

At the other extreme of Jeff's idea, I'm not saying you need some island green surrounded by water and fire and dragons to slay. As you say, no one would go for it. Just close enough to such a hazard to make it a risky play, but with enough room to tempt him. But for strategy to exist, the player needs to be placed in a situation where, if he misses his drive, he's likely to shoot a higher number from near the green than from the lay-up spot. That requires a pretty severe hazard.

« **Reply #17 on:** March 01, 2007, 06:04:08 PM »

Quote from: JSlonis on February 27, 2007, 11:18:20 PM

Adam,

This past weekend in Tuscon is was 357 yards!

I know Tuscon is a bit above sea level, but guys were flying it to the front part of the green with regularity.

That yardage was wrong. Johnny Miller said he lasered it at 310 yards. I'm not sure what happened.

« **Reply #18 on:** March 02, 2007, 01:09:12 AM »

I think that the pro tournaments sometimes quote the 'official' distance but they don't necessarily adjust it for when they move the tees up (which is probably not uncommon on short par 4s and on par 5s to make them more exciting)

At the John Deere there's a short par 4 on the back nine (14?) that's listed on the card as something like 358, but they'll move up the tees, especially when the wind isn't helping. When I was in the gallery a year or two ago when Wie made a really strong run at the cut (not this last year when she had heat exhaustion) the tees were up to the next set, and the hole was probably playing about 325. When I went home and watched it on Tivo they were saying it took a carry of 305 to clear the bunker on the hill on the right, in reality it was probably about 275. If they really believed it was 305 you'd think they would have taken the opportunity to comment on Wie's length when she hit a 3W on the fly about 10 yards short of that bunker

« **Reply #19 on:** March 02, 2007, 01:09:54 AM »

Quote from: Jason Topp on March 01, 2007, 06:04:08 PM

Quote from: JSlonis on February 27, 2007, 11:18:20 PM
Adam,

This past weekend in Tuscon is was 357 yards!

I know Tuscon is a bit above sea level, but guys were flying it to the front part of the green with regularity.

That yardage was wrong. Johnny Miller said he lasered it at 310 yards. I'm not sure what happened.

I heard something about tees being moved fwd later in the week, iirc. Still said 357 on the TV graphic, even days where it was only 310.

« **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2007, 10:00:33 AM »

Question for the members at Olympic, or anyone else who plays there somewhat often or during tournaments. How often does number 7 get driven from the tips?

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