It takes some Majors to design a good golf course

« **on:** February 27, 2007, 08:00:57 PM »

...at least so says Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player on a conference call today to promote the Presidents Cup.

JACK NICKLAUS: Well, first of all, let me thank Gary for a very nice compliment.
I think that being a player, I've always felt like it's very difficult if somebody guys who design golf courses that are average players, and they say, "well, we can design just as good as anybody else," and I firmly don't believe that. Do they design nice golf courses? Sure, they can design nice golf courses.

Nice, but apparently not great courses.

Wonder where that leaves Tom Doak? Making "nice" courses?

Gary, kissing Jack's ass, said Nicklaus was the greatest designer in the game. I guess in comparison to Player's questionable efforts, that is probably true....

« **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2007, 08:16:28 PM »

My understanding is that Tom Doak plays golf at a level that is substantially above average.

« **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2007, 08:17:39 PM »

Giddy-up! If Jack were truly the greatest, wouldn't Donald Trump hire him to design courses? Donald only builds the greatest.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2007, 11:39:58 PM »

Could you provide a link or a source to this comment so I can comment on this rediculous statement.

« **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2007, 11:55:51 PM »

While I don't totally agree with that, isn't there some truth to that statement? Maybe you don't have to be a world class player to be a good architect, but it seems that you should probably have some decent talent at least.

What kind of handicap does a Tom Doak or similar architect carry?

« **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:11:50 AM »

Robert
to paraphrase F. Scott Fitzgerald, "the winners of multiple major championships aren't like you and me".

Jack and Gary think differently than the rest of us; they always have (they HAD to) and always will. I can't begrudge them this one.

I think both men are remarkably decent fellows, especially considering they've lived in a very exclusive world/club for most of their lives. For all I know, what Gary meant was "Of the very few living souls on this entire planet who have won multiple major championships AND who now design golf courses, Jack is the best" - because that's the circle he runs in.

Peter

« **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:37:29 AM »

Quote from: Ben Voelker on February 27, 2007, 11:55:51 PM

While I don't totally agree with that, isn't there some truth to that statement? Maybe you don't have to be a world class player to be a good architect, but it seems that you should probably have some decent talent at least.

What kind of handicap does a Tom Doak or similar architect carry?

Ben, no!

Anyone can pretend to be a good player and imagine the type of shots they play. You can not imagine how to be a great architect, but maybe, just maybe, a nice one.

I would really love to know his definition of a nice golf course.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:05:12 AM »

I have to agree with Ryan on this one.

The great player has devoted a huge portion of their life to mastering the game. They have played many of the best courses in the world and have studied them as a player.

The architect studies in a differing manner. They study history, they span the globe, they watch a variety of world class players navigate the courses.

There is no either/or as Crenshaw displays, but Ben has always been regarded as a student of the game with a great regard for history.

The architect that has dedicated a lifetime to study, apprenticeship, and refining the craft gets my nod on what it takes to design great courses.

« **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:10:11 AM »

How good a player do you have to be to design great courses? That is the question I would ask Jack. In his mind, can only players of tour caliber design great courses?

Gary called Jack the best designer in the game, which I take to mean the best architect period. I wonder if Jack agrees. Does he think he designs the greatest courses out there, past and present? From what I understand, he doesn't care that much for at least some of the courses so highly revered here on GCA.com.

« **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:34:46 AM »

I wonder how comments like that make their staff feel? When did Chris Cochrane etc. win their last major?

« **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2007, 02:01:22 AM »

One look at the rankings of the best golf courses in this universe will tell you what an outlandish statement this is.

« **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:20:44 AM »

Perhaps you have to win a major to recognize a Nicklaus course as great

If I were an architect I think I'd be Ok pleasing the other 99.999999999999999999% left

« **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:24:22 AM »

funny enough...

most of the courses were the majors are played on are not designed by golf champions...

« **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:56:18 AM »

Here's the link to the interviews:

http://www.asapsports.com/show_conference.php?id=41408

« **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:09:03 AM »

I think you need to look at the comments in the context of the event and audience.

In a recent GD article, Nicklaus notes how he eventually came to realize that he was designing courses for tournament play and ignoring the average golfing population.

« **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:27:15 AM »

GARY PLAYER: I think if you asked me today who's the best golf designer in golf today, not because Jack is sitting here, but without a question I would say it's Jack Nicklaus today. Nobody started because we all start and we're all learning, but today I think Jack Nicklaus builds the best golf courses in the world.
Why? Because he was a hacker, believe it or not, at one stage in his life, then he became a reasonable player, then a better player, then the best player in the world. So he could look at a golf course from all different angles, whereas no other golf architect who's a 15 handicap can ever possibly do that. It's quite impossible for him to do it.

« **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:15:11 AM »

Jack says stuff like that on a regular basis, because he really believes it. He doesn't think I could possibly have designed a course like Sebonack on my own, although he hasn't seen any of my other work, so he wouldn't know.

I'm sure he would label Pacific Dunes as "nice," which is about the most you are going to get out of him if it's not one of his own courses. So what's the big deal? He called Royal Melbourne "nice," too, and I'm happy to take comparisons with it.

« **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:21:58 AM »

Bobby Jones said something to the effect that being a great player has nothing to do with being able to design a great golf course.

Jones was right.

Being a great golfer is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition to being a great architect.

Given the historical record, I don't understand how anyone could think otherwise.

Bob

« **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:30:08 AM »

I have never met Jack Nicklaus, but I wouldn't be surprised if he knows that the standards he achieved with his course designs, especially his earlier efforts, have fallen significantly short of his standards for tournament play. For that matter, I think on some level he is aware that there are a number of better architects out there, nearly none of whom were tour pros. I'm sure he has a difficult time recognizing that he could have a concerted effort that is not nearly as good as others...he is so habituated to his playing greatness. His overall portfolio of design work is average at best. He would have a hard time with this, given his makeup and I think he merely is trying to convince himself that only a truly great player (meaning himself) can design great courses. This is his way of denying the truth of the matter and one that he probably recognizes deep down.

« **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:31:04 AM »

"Anyone can build a hard golf course. Not just anybody can build a great one." - Ben Crenshaw (paraphrased)

« **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:40:44 AM »

ok, bare with me here...

Im a RIBA qualified professional building architect by qualification , but currently work as a golf course architect which i have also studied for and attained (rightly or wrongly) a qualifcation in that from the EIGCA ...

...does this beautiful, thoughtful statement by JN mean, that in order for me to design beautiful, thoughtful, strategic, functional "the best" building architecture, I have to be a world class businessman who has 'used' and 'worked in' the finest buildings in the world to become a successful architect and to produce the BEST result???

I will speak to Sir Norman and Zaha to get their thoughts on this....

outrageous!

« **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2007, 10:47:22 AM »

Quote from: James Edwards on February 28, 2007, 09:40:44 AM

ok, bare with me here...

Im a RIBA qualified professional building architect by qualification , but currently work as a golf course architect which i have also studied for and attained (rightly or wrongly) a qualifcation in that from the EIGCA ...

...does this beautiful, thoughtful statement by JN mean, that in order for me to design beautiful, thoughtful, strategic, functional "the best" building architecture, I have to be a world class businessman who has 'used' and 'worked in' the finest buildings in the world to become a successful architect and to produce the BEST result???

Makes sense to me

We also are forgetting that this is picked up by those that are hiring architects. JN is still marketing, and that's what most of this business is anymore. I spend 3/4 of my time talking about signature designers and player-designers with clients. Comments like this convince those that don't truly understand what it takes to be a good designer. But hey, like Tom stated, we should all be happy with a "nice" design if Royal Mel. was listed there.

« **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2007, 10:56:54 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 28, 2007, 09:15:11 AM

Jack says stuff like that on a regular basis, because he really believes it. He doesn't think I could possibly have designed a course like Sebonack on my own, although he hasn't seen any of my other work, so he wouldn't know.

I'm sure he would label Pacific Dunes as "nice," which is about the most you are going to get out of him if it's not one of his own courses. So what's the big deal? He called Royal Melbourne "nice," too, and I'm happy to take comparisons with it.

Tom: I still have a hard time seeing how this isn't insulting to you, unless of course you are now a plus handicap. I suspect that isn't the case, as you appear to be busy building golf courses these days.

« **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:01:23 AM »

Tom knows of what he says, but that does not take away from the stupidity of Jacks statement. I thought it had to be taken out of context for no one could actually think that way. Hmmm maybe Jack does. What does that say about a buckeye education?

« **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:55:08 AM »

Why doesn't Jack just come out and say it! People who are too stupid to play great golf are too stupid to design great golf courses, Alister MacKenzie included.

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