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JMorgan

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Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« on: February 23, 2007, 08:11:41 AM »
where one fairway was allowed to grow in over time....

What are some examples?  

Why has #8 at NGLA retained its integrity, while other CBM split fairway designs have been transmogrified into different holes altogether?

Before/after photos?  
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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2007, 08:39:03 AM »
# 18 at Yale, which is a true split fairway, has retained its integrity.

In the context of fairways with centerline hazards, perhaps
# 5 at The Knoll would also qualify.

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TEPaul

Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2007, 09:07:10 AM »
I wouldn't even call the 8th at NGLA a true split fairway hole. The centerline bunkering does cover about the first half of the hole and divides about a 65-70 yard wide fairway in half but after that the fairway merges only broken up somewhat by the Principles Nose bunker.

A true "split" or dual fairway hole by Macdonald/Raynor, however, was the Lido's 4th, the famous "Channel" hole. The high risk alternate fairway in a straight line from tee to green was totally out there on its own sort of in the dunes and only reachable by the fairly long golfer of that time. The rest had to go way to the left to the much larger but longer fairway route.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 09:08:42 AM by TEPaul »
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2007, 09:31:36 AM »
Patrick,

I am looking for still extant holes that were lost to tree planting programs and grow-in.

Tom,

I was rereading George Bahto's excellent book on CBM last evening and came across this call-out text in the context of #8 Bottle (based on #12 Sunningdale):  ""There were a number of split fairway holes built on the courses of Macdonald, Raynor, and Charles Banks.  Sadly, few of their original creations remain unaltered.  Some were drastically changed or removed as a result of maintenance and financial problems during the lean years, but many were destroyed by club green committees unable or unwilling to grasp the basis of the hole's strategy."

I am curious to know what CBM holes were originally designed with divided fairways but essentially became single fairway holes over time due to lack of understanding/redesign, etc.
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TEPaul

Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2007, 09:49:50 AM »
"I am curious to know what CBM holes were originally designed with divided fairways but essentially became single fairway holes over time due to lack of understanding/redesign, etc."

James:

So am I. If the book makes a general statement like that perhaps it should've identified what it was referring to. I think most of us know most of the Macdonald/Raynor and Banks courses and I don't see too many identifying holes that once were like that. If they were I'm sure a number of clubs would probably like to know about it.

One hole that had all kinds of optional routes (perhaps split fairways or semi-split fairways) was MacKenzie's prize winning hole that Macdonald did an altered iteration of at Lido. But Macdonald did mention he didn't do it exactly as Mackenzie designed it because it was far too wide---eg something like 200 or 250 yards wide.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 09:53:41 AM by TEPaul »
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Peter Pallotta

Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2007, 09:59:13 AM »
Off the last James-TE exchange (and the Bahto quote), the first question that occurs to me is:

What changed, and when? i.e. If the Macdonald/Raynor split fairways were originally found acceptable and understandable, why were later "green committees unable or unwilling" to understand and value their strategic import?

In other words, when did everyone get amnesia?

Thanks
Peter
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JMorgan

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Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 10:08:26 AM »
Peter, I'm after that answer, which should include the course/hole and when the change occurred... and why it occurred.
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TEPaul

Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 10:56:06 AM »
Before we begin to ask the questions of why and when any Macdonald/Raynor/Banks dual fairways were obsoleted it would probably be a good idea to determine if they ever existed in the first place.  ;)

Albeit not Macdonald/Raynor/Banks, the reason behind the obsoleting of one really cool alternate fairway---the 17th at PVGC---is a very interesting story.
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JMorgan

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Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 11:13:08 AM »
Quote from: TEPaul on February 23, 2007, 10:56:06 AM
Before we begin to ask the questions of why and when any Macdonald/Raynor/Banks dual fairways were obsoleted it would probably be a good idea to determine if they ever existed in the first place.  ;)

Albeit not Macdonald/Raynor/Banks, the reason behind the obsoleting of one really cool alternate fairway---the 17th at PVGC---is a very interesting story.

Indeed, any suggestions, Tom?

What is the story behind the planned obsolescence of PVGC #17's alternative fairway?
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TEPaul

Re:Instances of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks split fairways...
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2007, 11:30:01 AM »
"What is the story behind the planned obsolescence of PVGC #17's alternative fairway?"

The fifty year greenkeeper just before he died apparently remarked;

"Because the hose didn't reach".  ;)

Which only goes to show, if true, that in golf and golf architecture all kinds of things happen for the damnedest reasons.
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