[B_Smith]

Lets see:

Your course is continually under the knife and changing every year..

You must play temporary greens on  #5,6,10,16 at many times

Your course which has a wonderful Thomas lineage is now peppered with Tom Fazio bunkering and it looks (at least from the blimp overheads) like a TF course.

Maybe that is what the owner wants, but would you really be happy there as a member..??

[Tom Huckaby]

If I lived nearby, hell yes I'd be happy as a member there, even with all of that.  The good times would still outweigh the bad times by a long shot.  I'd also assume I could do reciprocal with other clubs during those times the course is being worked on.

But it is am imperfect situation, for sure.  I'd want to also belong to LACC.

 

[JESII]

Play time is far and away going to be the #1 concern.

How much time out of the year is the course closed for renovations? Last 5 years?

99% or more could care less about the Thomas lineage, if given the choice I bet most would think the Fazio name enhances the reputation.

All just an opinion, but this site is certainly no place to get an objective view of how Fazio is perceived as opposed to Thomas by the Riviera membership.

Frequest temporary greens would bother the hell out of me. How frequently are those four greens out of commission?

[Michael Robin]

The alternate greens show up during the week from time to time during high stress periods of the year. They are almost never in play on the weekends. I play Sunday morning so they're never an issue for me.

Last year was disrupted for the bunker renovation and new irrigation system, but everybody pretty much just signed on to the fact that this was going to happen. They actually did a good job of limiting how many holes they were working on at any one time which minimized the disruption. In other years the inconvinience has been minimal and I'm not aware of any other significant changes in the immediate future.

This GCAer counts himself as very happy and lucky to be a member of a place I NEVER tire of playing.

[Joel_Stewart]

Very few clubs are perfect and Riveria is far from perfect with the current owners.   With that said, it has a great membership with a few exceptions and would be a great place to be a member.   Bel_Air has some of the same issues minus the ownership.

[John_Cullum]

I could never be happy with membership at a course Geoff Shackelford hates

[rjsimper]

Would you be happy as an Augusta National Member?  

Let's see:

-The course is, at minimum, closed every spring for a tournament.

-The course is, upon re-opening, in recovery stage

- The course is closed all summer and often undergoes layout tinkering.

- The fairways are continually narrowing, trees are appearing from seemingly nowhere

- Most of your fellow members rarely, if ever, play and hardly any of them live nearby.  

Somehow, despite all of this, I think I could conceive of how I'd be happy as a ANGC member.

Same goes for Riviera or for ANY world-class club.  Are there going to be things less than ideal? Sure there are, but that can be said about any course.

When talking about the alternate greens and the inability some days during the week to play 18 regular greens, maybe we should compare Riviera's annual playing days to Pine Valley?  I played Riviera in late January sans-windbreaker even.  How many members were playing at Pine Valley on January 31?

It's an easy target for a number of reasons, most of which I can see (and may or may not agree with), but far be it from me to think that I'd be unhappy as a Riviera member.

To look at it from the flipside (because your first post accentuates only a few negatives):

Would you be happy as a Riviera member?

-You have one of the finest routings in the world
-You have one of the mildest climates anywhere in world
-Related to above - Barring the odd rain shower, you can play 350 days a year (minus the week before and the week of a major PGA tour event)
-Your course is rich in history, having been designed by one of the masters of his trade, having played host to one of the most prestigious "regular tour" events as well as several majors.
-Your course is a consensus top 50/100 layout
-You have arguably one of the top 5 par 3s AND par 4s in the world.
-Club facilities are second-to-none
-Worldwide prestige, from a business perspective, means that you are in a powerful position to entertain clients, prospects, and whatever you need, should you be in a position that benefits from such a connection
-You get to live in Southern California

It's all a matter of perspective, my friend.





 

[Geoffrey Childs]

Riviera is one of the best golf courses I have ever played. It is a treasure and if I were to ever live in S Calif. I would enjoy regular play.

However, being the trouble maker that I am I will say that more needs to be done to protect its legacy.  I have a hideous photo of the bunker on #7 from my visit (since redone) that was posted in the past and sticks out (or did so) like a sore thumb from the others.  That's not the case anymore because all the bunkers have apparently been re"crafted" by the Fazio team.  Now to my eye the unique George Thomas flair is gone from Riviera and it does look like a (modern) Fazio golf course. I feel that is a shame.  I can't comment on their placement, depth or playability as I could for Bethpage Black so I'll leave it to the members (and Geoff) for comments.  As a private course, I think Riviera is making a mistake by "modernizing" to the point where its style, look and heritage are compromised.

On second thougt its probably good that I'm not a member - I'd probably be kicked out  

[Garland Bayley]

So Geoffrey,

How much are you getting for your Skycaddie endorsement?

[Mike_Cirba]

Riviera is one of the best golf courses I have ever played. It is a treasure and if I were to ever live in S Calif. I would enjoy regular play.

However, being the trouble maker that I am I will say that more needs to be done to protect its legacy.  I have a hideous photo of the bunker on #7 from my visit (since redone) that was posted in the past and sticks out (or did so) like a sore thumb from the others.  That's not the case anymore because all the bunkers have apparently been re"crafted" by the Fazio team.  Now to my eye the unique George Thomas flair is gone from Riviera and it does look like a (modern) Fazio golf course. I feel that is a shame.  I can't comment on their placement, depth or playability as I could for Bethpage Black so I'll leave it to the members (and Geoff) for comments.  As a private course, I think Riviera is making a mistake by "modernizing" to the point where its style, look and heritage are compromised.

On second thougt its probably good that I'm not a member - I'd probably be kicked out  

Hear here on all counts!

I'd simply add that as ugly as that bunker on #7 was Geoff, the fairway bunker on 8 made the Merion bunker work look as though it was done by Michaelangelo.  

Is it really so hard to build a freaking bunker!?!?!?

Why can't these guys ever get it right???

[Kalen Braley]

-You get to live in Southern California

It's all a matter of perspective, my friend.

As a norcal boy myself, this would be the only downside.  Don't mind visiting the area and such, but zero interest in living there. (With the exception of San Diego, which is just awesome!)

[tlavin]

Of course I would.  It is the height of arrogance for you to suggest that an individual would not want to be a member of a club as great as Riviera because of the bunkering design of Tom Fazio.  I don't know the person who started this thread, but I'm guessing he hasn't designed that many golf courses and probably doesn't have the knowledge to offer an expert opinion of the shortcomings of the Fazio bunkers versus the Thomas bunkers.  This wasn't Geoff Shackelford or Brad Klein or Tom Doak, was it?  I didn't think so.  Tom Fazio gets his ass ripped by an unbelievable number of unqualified critics on this site.  If you don't like his courses because of your personal opinion, let's hear what the basis of your knowledge is.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Garland - I think I have the same deal that Barney got for advertising that skycaddie keeps a database of where you go to play. Just a bit of razzing all the great "traditionalists" on here that play huge titanium drivers, Hybrids and every game improvement device known to man yet claim they play by feel without yardages.

Terry- I'm only commenting on the look of the course and very carefully left playability of the new bunkers to those who know better.  I also said I'd love regular play at Riviera. Fazio has received a fair deal on evaluation of his own designs here from many (myself included) on GCA while I think you are correct that some others may have been less tolerant.  I will say that he has a written history of distain for old classic designs and his in the field work on them backs up his writing. I won't comment on his instructions from the memberships at each of these places but it is clear to see that he always seems to leave his distinct mark on each older course he touches. Is it arrogant to feel and write negatively about that?

[B_Smith]

Of course I would.  It is the height of arrogance for you to suggest that an individual would not want to be a member of a club as great as Riviera because of the bunkering design of Tom Fazio.  I don't know the person who started this thread, but I'm guessing he hasn't designed that many golf courses and probably doesn't have the knowledge to offer an expert opinion of the shortcomings of the Fazio bunkers versus the Thomas bunkers.  This wasn't Geoff Shackelford or Brad Klein or Tom Doak, was it?  I didn't think so.  Tom Fazio gets his ass ripped by an unbelievable number of unqualified critics on this site.  If you don't like his courses because of your personal opinion, let's hear what the basis of your knowledge is.

I am but a humble Buckeye who belongs to a very old, venerable and historic course in Cincinnati.  Our bunkering was butchered in the past and it took some of the ethos and history out of it.  Now we've reclaimed our birthright.  My point was that the old pictures of Riviera are of a jewel and the ones now don't look anything like the course.  Obviously, clubs mature and times change, I've seen it at my course which we've restored to its greatness.  I don't think Tom Doak or some of the others would have done what Fazio did and what TF did may be what the owners want.  If so, I'd blame them for what I see as a Florida looking course (at least from the blimp aerials) in LA.

[cary lichtenstein]

While I love the course, I understand that it has so many members and the play is so slow, that I doubt many would enjoy it the 2nd or 3rd year.

[Adam Clayman]

 if given the choice I bet most would think the Fazio name enhances the reputation.

All just an opinion, but this site is certainly no place to get an objective view of how Fazio is perceived as opposed to Thomas by the Riviera membership.

Sully, Why not? Are you implying this board doesn't have a dvierse enough spectrum of tastes? If so, I disagree.

Where would one go to get an objective view?

Who's views are objective?

[tlavin]

While I love the course, I understand that it has so many members and the play is so slow, that I doubt many would enjoy it the 2nd or 3rd year.

It is a bit of a golf factory with an awful lot of guest play.  Personally, I would probably opt for LA Country Club, which I've played on a number of occasions.  It is generally a lot less crowded and it has a second course that is much shorter, but still a lot of fun to play.  I just think it's a tad hypercritical for us rank amateur members to get all snippy about bunker design and insinuate that one wouldn't want to be a member at a jewel like Riviera merely because of the Fazio-styled bunkers or some interruption with play.

[Mike_Cirba]

Terry,

I respectfully disagree.

Should Geoffrey Childs just have kept his mouth shut about the butchering of the bunkers at Yale by Roger Rulewich, just because it's a fabulous, historic course and he should have felt merely privileged to be a member and play there?

[Noel Freeman]

My wife is a rank amateur at golf design but she knows what bunkering schemes I like and she asked me when I was watching the tournament if that was Doral..

[tlavin]

Terry,

I respectfully disagree.

Should Geoffrey Childs just have kept his mouth shut about the butchering of the bunkers at Yale by Roger Rulewich, just because it's a fabulous, historic course and he should have felt merely privileged to be a member and play there?

I can't comment about Rulewich's work at Yale since I've never been there and I'm not an architect.  I also would be loathe to criticize Geoff Childs who has a track record here and elsewhere.  I do take exception to the suggestion that Fazio "butchered" the bunkering at Riviera.  There surely are a number of bunkers that are more characteristic of Fazio's modern style as opposed to Thomas's iconoclastic style, but I don't think that you necessarily have to condemn the work because it is not faithful to the original.  You have to remember, he was hired by the club.  Knowing what I do about Riviera and Norm Klapharda who was likely intimately involved in the work, I'm sure that Riviera got exactly what it wanted.  Finally, I might respectfully disagree with a Doak or a Shackelford or a Klein or a Coore on an architectural issue, but I'd be awfully meek about it.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Terry

You have an open invitation to Yale.

[JESII]

 if given the choice I bet most would think the Fazio name enhances the reputation.

All just an opinion, but this site is certainly no place to get an objective view of how Fazio is perceived as opposed to Thomas by the Riviera membership.

Sully, Why not? Are you implying this board doesn't have a dvierse enough spectrum of tastes? If so, I disagree.

Where would one go to get an objective view?

Who's views are objective?

Adam,

"Objective" might not have been the best word; fair or honest might be closer. How many Riviera members are posters on here? Michael Robin already expressed his position. Are there others? My point was that anything touched by the Fazio team gets roasted on here (without recourse), and George Thomas is rightfully revered.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Because Fazio and/or his people choose not to respond on this board, is nobodies fault but their own.  
If they showed a presence and explained their motus, rather than denounce the board as fringe lunatics(which is an assumption on my part.) there would be an air of openness and would only enhance the practice of open discourse. As it stands, The valid criticisms that have been presented have not had a counter-point. If they had, maybe the perception that the board is one sided could be put to rest?

[George Pazin]

I know Sarge is kidding, but I would characterize Geoff's feelings toward Riviera as nothing but love.

He wrote the book on Riviera, literally.

[JESII]

Adam,

Please understand a couple things...the response of mine that drew your attention was to the third point of B_Smith's initial post asking whether or not "as a Riviera member" you would be pissed that your George Thomas golf course has been tainted by the Fazio team working on it. How many Riviera members have thus far weighed in with their opinions? One that I know of, possibly one or two in addition to the one that stated it.

Secondly, if you think the commentary on here about Fazio is anything but one-sided you have not been paying attention. The fact that they do not have representation on here explaining themselves does not reduce it to merely "perceived" one-sidedness. It's as one sided as it gets.

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