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Jon Spaulding

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Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« on: February 17, 2007, 10:41:42 AM »
In San Antonio last week and played Oak Hills; an AWT design from 1922 with remodel done by Jay Morrish in the early 80's. I found the course enjoyable, yet different; 9 and 18 were par 3's; 6700 yards from the tips, with four par 4's over 450; a 640 yard par 5; a 141 slope with few hazards; in a very urban setting.

I know little or nothing of AWT courses, and a marginal amount about JM courses. I believe that JM's been bashed for the work done at Ojai a while back (did not know that GTJ had written a book), and he allegedly ruined most of the bunkering there.

What I found interesting at Oak Hills was a lack of consistency in the bunkering; I was expecting great bunkering, as the only other AWT I've seen is SFGC. :P
Some were interesting, but a lot of flat saucers, which seems inconsistent with either designer. There were also a number of what look to be grassed in bunkers. I have pictures of other holes, saucers and grassed in junk if anyone wants to see them.

I suppose the question is does anyone know the littany of work done here, or can anyone id some of the grassed in pits in the photos below?


approach to #1


better view of #1


tee shot on #2


grassed in "something" on #5


approach on #8


"something" on #8


saucers on #11


some of the only fairway bunkers on #14


grased in greenside pit on #14



approach to #16


grassed-in hazard on #15 (morrish creation, or covered AWT?)


approach to #17


little guys on rh side of #17 green


pit fronting #17


dropoff @ back of #17

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Jeff Doerr

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Re:Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2007, 11:28:42 AM »
Thanks for the images Jon. Hopefully someone on here might have some old stuff to compare. The features on 17 have me wondering what was originally there.
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David Stamm

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Re:Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 01:29:19 PM »
Bump. Perhaps Philip can add some info?
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Tim Gavrich

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Re:Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 10:01:18 PM »
Very interesting.  I've never seen a course with such obvious former-bunkers.

Call me odd, but I really like the look of the greenside bunkers in the first two pictures.
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Mike Hendren

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Re:Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 10:24:51 PM »
Having played Oak Hills several years ago, I speculated that the grassed in bunkers were not Tillie's but rather the work of an intervening architect.  I also found the three hole stretch on the back nine beginning with the uphill par four (the 14th pictured above?) followed by the par five with a tree in the middle of the fairway hard by housing and finishing up with the harsh dogleg right par four with a reverse cant fairway to be inconsistent with the balance of the course and likely not original.  

My suspicions are supported by Cornish & Whitten's The Golf Course which indicates Joe Finger added three holes and remodeled six holes in 1961.  The "lost" bunkers are consistent with my limited experience of Finger's work.  

Frankly, I don't know if the first green is Tillie's or not but I found the bunkering spectacular, only to be a little disappointed as the round progressed and they turned out to be the exception rather than the rule.

Mike
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 10:26:45 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
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Mike Hendren

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Re:Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2007, 10:11:11 AM »
Cornish & Whitten also indicate that Ron Kirby and Denis Griffiths did a little renovation work there as well.

I believe this course also went to seed for some period of time in the 30's or 40's.

Mike
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Guy Phelan

Re:Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2007, 10:59:57 AM »
Quote from: Tim Gavrich on February 18, 2007, 10:01:18 PM
Very interesting.  I've never seen a course with such obvious former-bunkers.

Call me odd, but I really like the look of the greenside bunkers in the first two pictures.


Tim,

How are you so sure that the grass bunkers are obviously former sand bunkers?

Guy
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Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 09:18:13 PM »
Quote from: Jon Spaulding on February 17, 2007, 10:41:42 AM
In San Antonio last week and played Oak Hills; an AWT design from 1922 with remodel done by Jay Morrish in the early 80's. I found the course enjoyable, yet different; 9 and 18 were par 3's; 6700 yards from the tips, with four par 4's over 450; a 640 yard par 5; a 141 slope with few hazards; in a very urban setting.

I know little or nothing of AWT courses, and a marginal amount about JM courses. I believe that JM's been bashed for the work done at Ojai a while back (did not know that GTJ had written a book), and he allegedly ruined most of the bunkering there.

What I found interesting at Oak Hills was a lack of consistency in the bunkering; I was expecting great bunkering, as the only other AWT I've seen is SFGC. :P
Some were interesting, but a lot of flat saucers, which seems inconsistent with either designer. There were also a number of what look to be grassed in bunkers. I have pictures of other holes, saucers and grassed in junk if anyone wants to see them.

I suppose the question is does anyone know the littany of work done here, or can anyone id some of the grassed in pits in the photos below?


better view of #1


Hey John, thought you may want to see the "new" view of #1. Apparently, this was never a part of the original work, and is thought to be the work of an intervening architect trying to capture the trademak Tilly bunkers. The old aerials show the bunkers to indeed be like the picture below. Stay tuned, I still haven't had enough time to dig around. Edit: For better or worse all of the bunker are now consistent to this look. There are very interesting and extremely penal.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 09:21:10 PM by Wyatt Halliday »
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Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 09:24:49 PM »
tee shot on #2


Another example of the change-#2


[/quote]
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Deucie Bies

Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 09:52:59 AM »
How was the shape of the golf course?  When I played it about 10 years ago, it was one of the worst conditioned courses I had ever seen.  It would be interesting to go back and see the renovations.
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Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2008, 10:54:06 AM »
Deucie,

While I can't speak to the conditioning 10 years ago, I would say it is very good now. The greens are consistently smooth, and were very quick for the tournament. They could be pushed overboard, but from what I've been told they kkep them in check most of the year. The fairways play generally firm and fast, especially this time of year.

Wyatt
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Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2008, 11:45:34 AM »
What a difference! Please post more!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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Wyatt Halliday

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 11:54:15 AM »
Here is one of #18 that I posted on the Par 3's thread.
205yds. slightly downhill. I will post more when I get the chance.

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Sam Morrow

Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2008, 12:20:06 PM »
It's a wonderful golf course, I used to play the US Open Qualifier every year at San Antonio CC and would use an Oak Hills caddie named Ernest. He was older than dirt, was 5 feet tall and weight about 94 pounds. He had ears that would make Ross Perot snicker and I called him Mighty Mouse. Apparently he was some kind of a legend around there and people wondered how he ended up with my bag.
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Jon Spaulding

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2008, 07:44:03 PM »
Thanks for the update Wyatt; who's doing the work?

I'm not familiar with much of AWT's work having grass-faced bunkering. I believe he was in TX very early on and it could be possible.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2008, 09:04:29 PM »
Jon,

Tilly used bunkers of all types, grass-faced, sand-faced and combinations. In fact, he often used several different types on the same hole. This can be seen in photos of Winged Foot taken during the 1929 Open. I have several of the 18th green, for example, where the front left bunker has grass down 3/4's of the face while the back two on the left have sand up their entire faces.

What needs to be understood as to which type he used is an understanding of how he expected the hole to be played. For example, where the typical shot would come toward the green by means of a lofted club, he would most likely have used sand up the face. If the shot was struck by a long-iron or wooden club, he would often use grass faces as this would cause the ball to either hang up in the rough or bounce down into the bunker sand. It would never plug directly into the face...
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Jon Spaulding

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Re: Oak Hills CC/Tillinghast
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2008, 12:56:36 AM »
Quote from: Philip Young on November 14, 2008, 09:04:29 PM
Jon,

Tilly used bunkers of all types, grass-faced, sand-faced and combinations. In fact, he often used several different types on the same hole. This can be seen in photos of Winged Foot taken during the 1929 Open. I have several of the 18th green, for example, where the front left bunker has grass down 3/4's of the face while the back two on the left have sand up their entire faces.

What needs to be understood as to which type he used is an understanding of how he expected the hole to be played. For example, where the typical shot would come toward the green by means of a lofted club, he would most likely have used sand up the face. If the shot was struck by a long-iron or wooden club, he would often use grass faces as this would cause the ball to either hang up in the rough or bounce down into the bunker sand. It would never plug directly into the face...

Thanks for the information Philip; that makes good sense. Did AWT carry this theme throughout most of his work, or were there exceptions to this? SF pops to mind as one, but my experience with his courses is incredibly limited.

I'd be curious who's doing the work here; looks very similar to what was done over at Brackenridge Park. Purely speculative, but perhaps Trey can chime in with some details ;).......
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